The Past is Never Over

Episode 5: The Past is Never Over. 

HOST: You’re listening to The Great Unrooting. 

Maung: So we have been talking about two different things... [fade under] 

HOST: Over the past four episodes, we’ve been hearing from a college student named Maung Sawyeddollah. He’s a refugee.  

He’s 24 now, living in New York City. In a country that no longer welcomes people like him. And he’s not alone. There are tens of millions of people on the move. Many never make it to safety, some do. But even when they do, their stories never end there, in the new country. People like Maung have been through A LOT, and they come bearing wounds that may never heal. From Human Rights Watch, this is The Great Unrooting. Episode 5. The Past is Never Over.  

We’re going to do a couple of things in this episode. For most of it, we’re going to be in therapy mode. I’m going to talk to a few people about the effects of the refugee experience on individuals.  

Orfanos: We know that people can be resilient. And we know that therapy. And mental health services work. We do know that that's documented. We know that, that the, the communities need, uh, services, the communities need to be attended. It's not just gonna be individual therapy, although that could be a part of it, but the families need to be helped and the community support needs to be there. 

Host: Then we’re going to hear how Maung got from a refugee camp in Bangladesh into college in the U.S. LEGALLY, without a passport. And no money. 

Maung: They talk on their walkie-talkie, and they say ok. 

Host: And then we’ll hear some thoughts about how the world might respond better to the migrant crisis.  

Philippe: The current displacement crisis in the world, which is probably the worst it’s been in decades, I think is a symptom, a manifestation, of a world on fire.  

Nadia: It was such words of solidarity and hope and it really showed people in my community and my world, oh wow, this can be done. 

Host: When we think of the refugee story we don't really consider mental health. We think “survival” and “resilience.” Of someone who is happy to arrive at their destination. But how does the refugee experience affect refugees, really? 

Maung: Most of the Rohingya suffered the same psychological problems. I have seen, like people suffering, psychologically, including my grandpa.  

Host: This is Maung telling me about how in the refugee camps he could tell the conflict was affecting the people around him. Especially the one person he owes his life to. Maung’s dad was convinced to leave Myanmar by his grandpa.  

Maung: First, he became, uh, physically very weak because we had to walk for 15 days on foot. And then slowly he got sick. For example, he, he just do not know what he speak. He just do not know who he's speaking to in that way. Like, he passed away after a few months camp. 

Ngofeen: After a few months in the camp?  

Maung: Yeah. I have noticed, some people in the camp, especially from my, from my villagers, having the anger problem, for example, they never had the anger problem when they were in Myanmar. 

Emina: There is no normalcy. But then on top of that, you also don't have access to basic services, including psychosocial support or mental healthcare. So, for example, you know, earlier you shared how you have depression, you take Prozac and you know, personally, I'm seeing a therapist every single week, which helps me a lot. But then when you don’t have access to that... 

Alt/Host: This is Emina Cerimovic, an associate director in the disability rights division of Human Rights Watch. Also, she was once a child refugee during the Bosnian War in the 1990s. 

Ngofeen: You mentioned earlier that when I said refugee camp, and you're like, before refugee camp, as soon as people have to leave.  

Host: mina and I have spoken throughout this series about the experiences of refugees. But I was particularly interested to hear when these issues of mental health manifest. 

Ngofeen: Can you give me a sense of when these kinds of issues come up? Yeah.  

Emina: You know, as someone who had to flee her home in the middle of the night, and as someone who has spent years documenting experiences of other internally displaced people and people who have been persecuted, um, it's really that first time when you feel unsafe in your home and when you. For my family and me, we didn't even have a chance to pack even our documents. It was just an opportunity that arised that there was someone at the checkpoint that my dad knew who would let us out of [the town. They just woke us up at 3:00 AM and we left and we never were able to go back.  

There is a sense of loss. It’s really difficult to go through that mentally. And I think every person who has ever fled their home, including myself, always believes that we would go back. And then you hear that your house has been bombed or that your house has been destroyed and you have to make peace with the fact that you have actually lost your home forever.  

Ngofeen: What does making peace with that mean?  

Emina: Yeah, I think it depends for different people. Some people that I have even interviewed, uh, and that I know personally have never been able to make peace. Concretely in Bosnia we have a high, um, instance of PTSD. And, and yeah, some people can hardly ever make peace with that. Even now we have,  

Palestine where people who were displaced in 1967 still hold the keys to their homes hoping that they would be able to go back, which they were never allowed to do.  

So, for example, last week when I interviewed the man from Sudan, the way he found peace is really in his faith. He said that faith gives him lots of hope and that he knew that he had to go through this and that, um, that it was his destiny.  

Personally, I think that even though it's like I've lived in so many other places since we had to flee from my hometown, um, there's always going to be that pain. Um, so I'm not really sure that you ever really make peace with that. I think you just find a way, at least for me, and some people that I have met, you find a way to deal with it.  

Ngofeen: Mm-hmm.  

Emina: And some people don't.  

Host: Even after you've settled into a new country or returned to your old one, these feelings are part of the story of migration. This is central to Emina's work on mental health. 

Emina: So it's been, it's been now 10 years that I've been investigating, uh, the mental health harms, uh, that refugees experience. You know, it's something that we didn't talk about, like. A decade ago, like we didn't talk about it as a human rights violation, what does it actually mean.  

So one thing is that you have, you, you, you're being harmed psychologically either because you have lost your home, you have lost a family member. You, um, you know, you can't go back to school. There is no normalcy 

Ngofeen: Mm-hmm.  

Emina: Including by conditions that, uh, the host countries put you in.  

So in 2017, I published, um, I published a piece on the mental health harms caused by. European policies on the Greek island of Lesbos. So we are talking about Greece, which is a country that's part of the EU where refugees were placed and put to live in such horrific conditions that it caused them mental health harms, including, including, um, people had a suicidal ideation, even tried suicide. People spoke about inability to sleep and, uh, uh, and inability to eat and how they felt and how, you know, I interviewed a man who had been tortured back in Syria, but then he told me that the way he's being treated in Greece is way worse for him, uh, due to the conditions that then existed in the Maria camp on Lesbos.  

So it's all these different things that are playing a role. You know, like one is what you have experienced back home, what you have experienced during the journey, and then the experiences that you're going through in the host country. That dehumanization that continues when you have come to a place where you're supposed to be safe.  

And I think what I have seen, and I've seen that with lots of people that I have interviewed, is when they are in that phase of having to flee in survival mode, they all keep up with it. You know, they are able to survive. They just want to survive. It's really crashes on them when they come to a place like, you know, Lesbos, in Greece is actually a beautiful island.  

And you come to that island; you're supposed to be safe. And then you're treated in such an undignified manner. And at the same time, you know, like there's nothing you can do. You, you can't work, your children don't go to school.  

You're literally confined inside of a camp. And it's then that, uh, you know, other, that you start ruminating and that you start questioning things. And um, and that's when actually people kind of like, when they're not any longer in the survival mode, but they have to process everything that they have been through, but they can't because they're continue to be harmed in different ways. 

HOST: After Emina’s family fled Bosnia, they ended up in Sweden.  

Ngofeen: What do you remember about arriving in Sweden? And how - was it? Were you nine?  

Emina: I was 10.  

Ngofeen: 10. Okay.  

Emina: They quickly, uh, placed us in a, a refugee camp on the outskirt of Trelleborg, where we, um, live for a few months. It wasn't like a refugee camp that you think of when you think of refugee camps in Uganda or Chad, where we have, you know, like thousands and thousands of refugees. Um, it's not like a tent like encampment, but it is, you know, build a big building where we are, um, you know, living in one room and sharing, uh, toilets and bathrooms and the kitchen and everything with, uh, hundreds of other refugees.  

And, uh, you're just waiting. You know, there is like a time where you're just waiting. Um, and luckily because my aunt already lived in Sweden. And my grandmother got the status because of my aunt. We were able to move in with my grandmother who had an apartment. So, we didn't stay for too long in the refugee camp, which was honestly not a nice experience.  

We had, you know, we had a home, we had food on the table that was food that my mom prepared. We were able to go to school, my sister and I, after not going to regularly to school for two and a half years.  

And then we got access to healthcare. And then having that access in Sweden was incredible. And, you know, learning a new language is a lot easier for you when you're a child. And at the same time, I think that living in Sweden was sometimes I wonder whether what I've been through in Sweden was worse than what I've been through during the Bostonian war. 

You know, I had to process it as much as I had to process the war. I feel in many ways in terms of, um, I was, uh, I was bullied at school, I was physically abused and only because I was. You know, like an invandrare, which is, uh, the word in Sweden for migrant.  

Ngofeen: What was the word  

Emina: Invandrare?  

Ngofeen: Sort of like invader is what it's sounds.  

Emina:I Inever made that connection. Yeah. But that's really, that's really interesting to think about way. Um, yeah. It's kind of like, you know, those who Yeah who come Be in the country. Yeah. And it was, you know, it was other kids who did that to me  

So we lived in a town that was very close to the coast and the school took us on a day trip to make, um, like sand castles or sand figures. There was a cloudy day and I was down, uh, working with my girlfriends from the class. Um, actually we were making, um, how do you call it? Half woman, half fish.  

Ngofeen: A mermaid. Yeah.  

Emina: So we were on the ground, on the sand, making a mermaid, and out of nowhere, Andreas, who was from my class, like a cute blonde, blue eyed boy, just come from the back. And as I was, you know, kneeling down, and he just holds me from my, um, from my shoulders and kicks me. And he just says, invandrare, which is like, you know, ‘you're fucking migrant. Go back to your country’. 

And it's like, what did I do? It's hard as a child to understand and to process it. and, and I think, you know, it's just. Even, you know, I spent lots of time in therapy and just having to process that on top of the childhood trauma that I had from the war, just being like literally physically abused and bullied in school because my clothes are from Red Cross since my mom, you know, we didn't get the status. She couldn't work. And so, um, we would get clothes that were donated and then you would have a child recognize their clothes on you, and then you would become, you know, like an object of ridicule or, um, I have an accent with every language that I speak, including my native Bosnian, because I went to a speech therapist as a child and I learned to speak very late.  

So even with Swedish, I had an accent. And that was another reason why, you know, I would be an object of bullying and ridicule and, um. And, you know, like, so I just wanted to say it. It was really, um, it was really difficult for me. 

It wasn't something that I could just come and tell my mom about.  

Yeah, it was just, it was just really, really painful and took me lots of years to process and to move on and to, you know, to understand that it wasn't my fault.  

Spyros: my name is Spyro Orphans. 

Ngofeen: And what do you do? 

Spyros: I'm a psychologist and a psychoanalyst, and I'm the director here at the NYU Postdoctoral Program in psychotherapy and psychoanalysis. 

Host: We’re going deeper into therapy, y’all. If you’ve ever watched couples therapy, this is like where the therapist talks to their supervisor. I’m talking to an expert. 

Now thing is, this is old tape. I recorded this for a different job six years ago. We never aired the tape, but it’s been on my mind the whole time talking to Maung. This was during Trump 1.0 when the government was separating children from their parents. You might remember the phrase “kids in cages” from that 2020 immigration crackdown. Anyway, some attorneys asked Spyros to examine the kids - young, young kids to teenagers. 

Spyros: See, when you're a little kid and you're traumatized, it's your fault. It doesn't matter that the state is doing it. It doesn't matter that it's poverty, it's just your fault, because that's the only way you could think as a little child, and that becomes part of your psychological makeup, that becomes your identity. 

Host: Spyros says this identity carries into adulthood... 

Spyros: For example, uh, you know, they, they might, they might be ready for a big promotion, right? But they feel worthless inside. They feel, you know, do they know where I'm coming from? Do they, but sometimes that's not even thought. It’s, it's not even a formulated thought. It's like, I'm no good. I came, I was traumatized in these kinds of ways. 

Academic performance and you could do well, and then when it comes to, for example, uh, your parent passes away or you're going to get some big promotion or something, you feel like you're really an imposter, but you know, rationally you're not an imposter that you worked for it. 

Right? So, there's that piece that gets activated. This incredible vulnerability. Deep down you are very vulnerable because you feel like you, you're bad, you deserve this. And of course that's not true. Most of the time, it's not true. You didn't deserve to be, you know, to be subjected to that kind of poverty, or you didn't deserve to be the subjected to the police and the gang violence. You didn't deserve to, you know, to be, uh, raped as you go through central Guatemala and Mexico to get to the Mexican [border. 

Phone rings. 

HOST: That phone ring is a moment to fill you in on a few details. Spyros married a child survivor of the holocaust. And he himself grew up seeing his Greek uncles in New York City being snatched up by the predecessor of ICE, the INS. The trauma of migration, he says, crosses generations. 

Spyros: I and my family have been dealing with some of these issues. And, uh, um, you know, uh, a kind of a nightmare is that somebody's gonna ask me for my papers. And I don't have them 'cause it's ridiculous. 'Cause I have papers. But it's a, it's like a nightmare. 

Somebody, somebody's gonna stop me and say, show me your papers, you know? And I don't have papers. And, uh, that's, that's very, uh, powerful. And that's a form of intergenerational transmission of trauma. I have the damn papers, but somewhere in some deep way, I'm worried that I don't have the pa- that I'm not legitimately here, 

HOST: So this is the point, where -- I don’t know about you -- but I need a break from therapy! So we’re going return to the world of action-packed NARRATIVE. SCENES. STAKES. PLOT…. We’re gonna hear how Maung GOT OUT. How Maung came to the U.S. That’s after the break. 

AD BREAK 

Host: There's no way out of the camp. We all know this now. Except for medical emergencies. So Maung fakes a health crisis. 

Just kidding. He does something way more Maung. 

He picks up a new language. Bangla -- which is a different language, distinct from Rohingya. He learns it and then he sneaks out of the camp, makes contact with some representatives of a nearby Bangladeshi university who can get him in. With one important condition. You got to pretend to be Bangladeshi. I.e. your language has to be on point. 

Maung: Like a person from there was saying even if you dream, in the dream you need to be dreaming in Bangla. I was like, oh my God, it is very tough for me. 

Host: Maung gets admitted, he shares a room in an apartment with Bangladeshi students and starts school… 

Maung: Nobody know I'm Rohingya.  

Host: ....as a Bangladeshi. But his new friends have opinions about the Rohingya… 

Maung: They tell like many bad conceptions about the Rohingya.  

Host: The Rohingya may not be from Bangladesh but the stereotypes preceded them. If you think about it, it makes perfect sense why. There's a population of 1 million refugees living at the border of a country, in camps. Like with people who live on the streets in any major city, those who don’t can sometimes create their own narratives about people with no homes who've just been here for years on end. 

Maung: In their perspective, Rohingya are like some people who came from jungle, highly uneducated, know nothing, complete dependent. 

Host: But he keeps his mouth shut. 

Maung: I cannot tell them, like, you are not right. I cannot tell them because I can, if I tell them, then they will understand I'm defending the Rohingya. 

Host: First semsester. Second semester. His mouth stays shut. 

Maung: All my professor used to like me a lot, used to like me a lot even if I do not speak in the class. 

Host: They even asked him to TA…  

But one day… 

Maung: ...A professor who was praising about me a lot in the class, and he went and me to share a little bit about myself to the class. I thought, uh, I can no longer pretend. I know how misconceptions and how misunderstanding some of my friend have about the Rohingya people. And now. I'm the same Rohingya that all of them are clapping for and all of them are, praising . 

Host: If he does this, he risks getting kicked out, sent back to the, in air quotes, prison camp. Speaking up, has serious stakes. Not just for him... 

Maung: there were also some other Rohingya in, in the class. 

Host: There are other Maungs, other people who snuck out of the refugee camp and were pretending to be Bangladeshi...  

Maung: There are also some other… 

Ngofeen: Did you know? 

Maung: Yeah, I know. they also know we have internet communication with each other. 

So when the professor asked me to share something, I didn't able to stop myself. Even, I tried my best because, uh, I really wanted to change the mentality of the people, 

Host: Remember: Maung is an agent of change. 

Maung: I am an agent of change. 

Then I exposed that my identity, that I'm a Rohingya. and other Rohingya, two or three Rohingya. They were like very scared there. I can, I can see their face. They were very stressed. Uh, maybe they were thinking, uh, whether or not I'm going to tell these are these are also Rohingya. 

Ngofeen: [laughter] And he's a Rohingya and she's a Rohingya. We're all – okay, yeah. 

Host: So Maung comes out. And he gets kicked out of the university. But there’s a silver lining to this story… 

Maung: Even though those friend in the class knew that I'm Rohingya, they do not hate me. So there was something I feel a little bit. Like I did, I have taken a good decisions because now I can be free with them. I can engage with them as a Rohingya. 

So even they help me to get a, a room in, in Chattogram Otherwise, er, Rohingya cannot get a room there because they will ask me for ID and other things. And from that room I started like applying in different universities. 

Host: He starts trying to apply to college, online. 

Maung: It was an ad on the Facebook. 

Host: He clicks on a targeted Facebook ad. Finds a school in California that'll let him in. 

Maung: University of the People, The first time I see I thought maybe it's in scam. 

Host: LOL. Refugee does not mean you are internet illiterate. Gen Z is Genz. Maung applies to the school. Except… 

Maung: I didn't able to submit the application because it would asking me to pay the application fees. Forget about the, the, the fees. For me as a Rohingya, I even do not have, a, a bank account, a credit card.  

Host: He emails the school, explains, gets the fee waived, moves back to the refugee camp, starts class.  

Ngofeen: Are you doing all the homework on your phone, like typing it up on your phone? 

Maung: Yes. 

Ngofeen: Oh my gosh. 

Maung: so what what what I do is like, um, when I go to, to the, to the mountain for the internet access, I download the reading materials and the instruction of the assignment for the University of the People. And I come back to my home and I do complete the assignment. 

Host: Then Maung goes back up on top of the mountain, and sends it out. Then he starts getting ideas...  

Maung: Why not I try like going out of the box. 

Host: He goes way out of the box and gets himself admitted to New York University, super expensive, one of the hardest schools to get into in the country. NYU. That turned out to be the easy part for Maung. 

Maung: It's even more difficult for Rohingya to get into the us, because it's not easy to get a visa, uh, of the United States. 

Host: My man doesn't even have a passport. Where do you even put a visa if you don’t have a passport to stamp it in? Maung? Undeterred. 

Maung: I reached out to, uh, some of my connection that I had, uh, into the US Embassy in Dhaka because, some of them used to come to the camp. That is how I know them. 

Host: So he's got contacts at the US embassy and he's pursued them online, and he's only like 21 years old at this time. No wonder NYU admitted him.  

Maung: I shared them about my, um, admission offer at NYU. But they also didn't know what to do, how they can help me. Because you do not have a passport. 

BUT THEN, THEY SAY... YOU KNOW WHAT? HERE'S WHAT YOU'RE GONNA DO: 

Maung: Usually when people apply for the visa, they required to put passport detail and, uh, those kind of things. But in my case, they instructed me to put, uh, zero in, in, in my passport number. So I did that. I followed their instructions and one day I received a call from, , a colleague from, from the US Embassy in Dakha, saying like if you are free at this date, you can come to the US Embassy for an interview, for a visa interview, 

Host: This time Maunggoes to all the way to Dhaka, capitol of Bangladesh, with a camp exit permit for his interview. Shows up at the US embassy gate. 

Maung: At the gate of the embassy, , I showed them the, the, the appointment letter, and they were asking me for the passport. I say, I do not have a passport. I only have this. Uh, so it was very strange for all of them. In every checkpoint I have crossed, because they never seen, like there's a case, like someone has a, uh, appointment letter, but not a passport. 

Host: They're like this dude has no passport just this appointment later.  

Maung: They talk into their walkie-talkie and they say, okay.  

Host: GO ON AHEAD. until he gets into the room at the consulate WHERE THE US IMMIGRATION OFFICE SAYS.. 

Maung: We understand your situations, But the problem is like you do not have a passport. So without passport, how can we provide you a visa? Because with, without a passport, uh, you might need a security clearance from Bangladesh government. 

Host: Basically, the US embassy tells him. IF YOU CAN get the Bangladesh government to sign off on your departure from the country, essentially vouch for you, then you can go. But without that… 

Maung: We can do everything possible from our side, but we cannot take responsibility of the Bangladesh government. 

Host: The authorities again. Here, I picture Maung shifting in his seat. 

Maung: I smiled a little bit and I, I asked, I asked them a question. I heard that the, the us the, have, uh, like more political, power and united. States can control almost every country. 

Do you agree that? And he was like, yes, I do. Then I was like, okay. Then in front of the power of United States, Bangladesh is just a small, uh, country. So you really can do, if you, you, you, you want to 

Host: Consul is like.... Okay.  

Maung: Your Visa is approved. 

HOST: From there, he got the security clearance. Flew to JFK WITHOUT A PASSPORT, JUST A SHEET OF PAPER. AND AT JFK AFTER A FEW STRANGE LOOKS FROM CUSTOMS, THEY LET HIM IN. 

HE GOT INTO THE U.S. LEGALLY. 

Extraordinary. He is the only Rohingya at NYU. How’d he pay for it? He convinced NGOs and others to give him money. He also had a gofundme at one point.  

But the long journey there has had repercussions. The past has started to creep into the present, as we mentioned in an earlier episode. 

Maung: Last year during the US Independence Day, there were lots of firework taking place 

Host: And he forgot where he was. 

Maung: When the firework started, I was like, oh my God. Like it, like a very similar song, very similar, the voice, the gunshots that I have had in Myanmar. And so I immediately forgot I was in the US, and like, for a while I became frozen. my, my, my, my soul was kind of out of my body 

CURTIS: In World War I that was called shell shock. 

Host: That’s producer Curtis Fox. 

CURTIS: In World War II that was called battle fatigue. Do you see yourself as someone with PTSD and trauma?  

Maung: Um, I don't know. 

Ngofeen: Do you feel like what you've gone through has affected you in a way that that therapy is helpful? 

Maung: Um, I mean it depends because the therapy is just kind of like, for me, it just kind of like, uh, sharing everything that is inside of me releasing everything that is inside of me. It's helpful, but not that much.  

Ngofeen: Why don't you think ultimately it's helpful for, for you? Like, what is, what, what is, what is it not doing? 

Maung: Uh, okay. So I kind of feel like therapy just tries to give people some kind of understanding and is ultimately, uh, convincing the people to compromise. That is what I feel. It's ultimately trying to convince people in a different way to compromise their feelings, their understandings in a different way. 

For example, let's say if I do have a sleeping problems, uh, I mean, I do have, if I do have a sleeping problem, there are different reason why, uh, the sleeping problems happens. I n therapy, the therapist try to understand those reason and try to give me suggestions and advices, for example, of not, uh, doing those things again so that I can sleep. 

So, for example, if I am not thinking of all of those things, then I'm compromising of who am I? 

So if I keep sleeping, if I keep playing, if I keep doing the things that I enjoy, for example, watching movie, watching drama, all of those things, yeah, it helps to forget the, the, the past that's taken place. But that's not the purpose of my life. That my, my, I have a purpose in my life and that require me to be recalling those things. That is when the disturbance happen.  

MUSIC POST 

Nadia: We have record numbers every year. As of last year, I think there are 117 million forcibly displaced people in the world, of which about over 45 million are refugees.  

HOST: That's of course Nadia Hardman, from Human Rights Watch. Nadia's been a frequent presence in this series as we've tried to tell Maung's story, and the larger story of the migration crisis. I spoke with her one last time to get a sense of why the unrooted are a human rights problem... 

Nadia: So, every year you have this continuing, increasing number of forcibly displaced people on the move. And increasingly, people are more internally displaced because of climate-related reasons. And then yet at the same time, we see an increasing backlash against immigration, against migration. The weaponization of migration is pretty mainstream now from the US to Europe to everywhere.  

And of course there is a right to seek asylum. And in international law, you should be assessing an asylum claim without punishing the way in which someone came into that country. 

Phillipe: The current displacement crisis in the world, which is probably what the, the worst it's in decades, I think is, a symptom, uh, a manifestation of a world on fire. 

HOST: Nadia and I were joined by the Executive Director of Human Rights Watch, Phillippe Bolopion. As we’ve been reporting and producing this series, interviewing Maung and dozens of other people, there’s always been this question of why should people care about all this? I know the reason, because humans each deserve fundamental dignity. FULL STOP. And legal rights. But it doesn’t stop me from having the practical question. Why should people care? I put this question to Phillipe. 

Phillipe: Uh, I would say that, uh, a government that, uh, violate the rights of asylum seekers or migrants, the way in which, uh, the US government is doing these days, for example, and is, is demonizing these populations never stops there. They will go after other categories of the population. It's always the same. It starts with, you know, the most disfavored parts of the population. And in many of the countries that have experienced a, a rapid democratic decline in the last few years, it's, it's, uh, LGBT people. 

It's women. It's, uh, migrants and asylum seekers, but it never stops there. It extends to larger parts of a society, eventually to people, who have uh, uh, differing political views. And it's the, you know, it's a symptom of a society that doesn't respect rights and, and that affects everyone. 

So I think it's, it would be a very shortsighted, uh, way of thinking to think that, you know, the, the human rights violations against, uh, uh, a disfavored minority that I'm disconnected from is not my problem. 

Host: Another question I had for Nadia: how can the world be better? What needs to happen to help the increasing number of unrooted people on the move throughout the world? She immediately thought about the war in Ukraine. 

Nadia: At the time that the Ukraine war started and you know, Russia's invasion of Ukraine. 

I was documenting how Syrian asylum seekers were trying to cross the border into Poland. And at the same time was witnessing how Ukrainian refugees were being welcomed into Poland. So on the one hand you had these brutal pushbacks of people being violently prevented from entering a country. 

And on on the other hand, you had the situation where Poland was opening its doors and the rest of Europe opened its doors to the Ukrainian refugees within I think weeks or potentially, you know, a month, the EU for the first time launched something called the EU Temporary Protection Directive, which basically gave all Ukrainians who wanted to flee into Europe, essentially the right to work, freedom of movement, residency, rights immediately, which was amazing. It was basically saying, you can come here and you can legitimately be here and we will protect you and we will respect you. On the other hand, if you're a Syrian refugee or if you were, you know, um, from Afghanistan or any other place, that will not happen. 

You will likely be put in a migration detention center or sent back, and it was really powerful to watch the way in which EU member states leaders, but also the media just spoke about, uh, Ukrainians so differently, right? Like you, you, you, you heard of Syrian refugee, uh, Syrian refugee wave. You know, mass influx rather than, you know, welcoming Ukrainians and how can we help them? It was such words of solidarity and hope and it really showed people in my community and my world, oh wow, this can be done and this is how it's done, and how do we learn from this? You know, it was hard not to be cynical. They were not black or brown. They were seen as European and, and maybe that has something to do with it. But I do think it was, outstanding to see political leaders talk so favorably about, a refugee population. And I think that had a huge impact. 

And it showed just how easily this can be done, how you can rally resources, how you can give something like temporary protection and what has been proven, just my final thought, in the refugee space is the better that you treat a refugee, the more rights you give that person or that family and the respect and the dignity to live well, the more likely actually they are to return. 

HOST: What if there’s nowhere to return to? What if people destroyed your house? What if people razed your village? What if your people have been driven from their homeland, and are not allowed back? For Maung, the change agent, as he calls himself, this means that his time in New York is not his alone. He is on a mission, to seek justice and peace for his people.  

Maung: Everything I am today is, because I'm a Rohingya and I'm very, proud of that as well. Everything I am today and everything I'm doing, and everything I will do in the future is, for my community, for, for the Rohingya. 

HOST: Thanks for listening to the Great Unrooting. If you want more stories about the Rohingya and about Human Rights Watch’s work, check out the website hrw.org. You can also many other stories on the podcast Rights and Wrongs. This episode was produced by me and Curtis Fox. Sophie Soloway is our associate producer. Scoring this episode by me and Chaz McKinney. Ifé Fatunase, Stacy Sullivan, and Anthony Gale are our executive producers.