The Inhumanity of the Algorithms

The Inhumanity of the Algorithms

Ngofeen Mputubwele: [00:00:00] Can you just start by telling me who are you, where do you live, what do you do? 

Apraham Urphalian: My name is Apraham Urphalian. I live in Beirut, Lebanon, and I drive an Uber. I'm an Uber driver. 

Ngofeen Mputubwele: And how old are you? 

Apraham Urphalian: I am right now seventy-four. 

Ngofeen Mputubwele: And will you tell me what happened October 3rd, 2024? 

Apraham Urphalian: Okay, so a request came from the city of Jounieh, so I drove there.

Two men came in, and one of them sat right next to me, and the other one sat exactly behind me. When we reached the by, on the highway, uh, there is some buildings on the side. They said, "Here will be good." Okay, I stop. As soon as I stop, the person behind me, he put his hand exactly like this on my throat. His arm was [00:01:00] totally on my throat, and a, a knife, I feel like it's very sharp knife, and there was something metal u-up on top of my head, whether it was gun or, uh, something else, but I felt it's, it's a cold metal.

I immediately raised my hands up, and I said, "Take what you want." 

Ngofeen Mputubwele: This episode is about gig work, about working for platforms like Uber and DoorDash and TaskRabbit. It's not just about getting robbed or hurt on the job. It's about how the multi-billion dollar company you're working for responds when you get robbed or hurt on the job.

It's about the rights of contractors and employees. It's about human rights

This is Rights & Wrongs from Human Rights Watch. I'm Ngofeen Mputubwele. We're calling this episode The Inhumanity of the Algorithms [00:02:00] 

Lena Simet: My name is Lena Simet, and I'm a researcher at Human Rights Watch 

Ngofeen Mputubwele: Lena works on economic issues and labor rights 

Lena Simet: And the ways in which economic policies affect human rights 

Ngofeen Mputubwele: Lena interviewed Apraham for Human Rights Watch before we got him on the podcast 

Lena Simet: We met with him in Beirut We met him actually when he was driving, and we- he told us his story, and he had- 

Ngofeen Mputubwele: Oh, like you met him incidentally 

Lena Simet: Uh, uh- He 

Ngofeen Mputubwele: was your driver 

Lena Simet: Exactly, yeah 

Ngofeen Mputubwele: I see.

Okay, okay 

Lena Simet: Uh, but we went to Beirut, and we interviewed a bunch of workers Mainly food delivery and, and taxi. So we were in the car with Apraham, and we told him about what we are doing, and he was very eager to share his story. He actually said, "You guys are among the first customers I'm having again since this incident" And he's w- he was still very anxious and, and worried about being back on the road- Yeah

because of what happened to him 

Apraham Urphalian: He said, "Don't move." He, he said, "Lower your hands." I lowered my hands. The one sitting next to me [00:03:00] came around the car and put his hand like this on my chest He pulled me out of the car, and he pushed me on the side of the road, and he jumped in the car, and he fled. The car was still on.

I didn't, I didn't turn it off 

Ngofeen Mputubwele: Yeah 

Apraham Urphalian: I had two phones, a, a Samsung and iPhone. They stayed in the car, but I couldn't take anything from the car 

Ngofeen Mputubwele: Yeah 

Apraham Urphalian: I had to walk five kilometers and get to the police station and report it 

Lena Simet: The story is one that really reminds me of many stories that we've heard ... from workers that were assaulted or victims of crimes while at work- 

Ngofeen Mputubwele: Mm-hmm

Lena Simet: and during their shifts. And none of the ones that we spoke with had any support from the platforms that they worked with at the time of the incident 

Apraham Urphalian: In the meantime, I bought another phone. I got in touch with Uber. I asked them if they can provide the data or the phone number of the person who ordered this deal.[00:04:00] 

I mean, i- in so many ways they said, "No, this is privacy." I told them, "I mean, you're ta- you're claiming privacy. I mean, you're protecting the thief and victimizing further the victim." I mean, I did not ask them for financial help or anything. Okay, in this case my car is gone. Uber at least minimum should go raise a complaint or suit against that, uh, phone number or to find Uber, whoever it is.

I mean, what I see, what I can see is they literally practice indifference 

Ngofeen Mputubwele: Mm-hmm 

Apraham Urphalian: Indifference so toward the victim 

Lena Simet: In Apraham's case it was very clear, and he, he, he actually managed to get footage- 

Ngofeen Mputubwele: Mm-hmm ... 

Lena Simet: of the passengers when they entered his car- 

Ngofeen Mputubwele: Mm-hmm ... 

Lena Simet: because he was parked in front of a, a supermarket 

Ngofeen Mputubwele: Yep 

Lena Simet: When he picked him up, and we reviewed the footage, we reviewed the police report, but the company refused to engage beyond sort of [00:05:00] a nice conversation of, "Oh, we are very sorry this happened to you."

But the response essentially was, "We have no responsibility for any of this." Mm-hmm. "Because you are not our employee. You're an independent contractor." "So whatever happens to you during your shift is really your problem." 

Ngofeen Mputubwele: Mm. 

Lena Simet: And that's really the, the crux of the issue, and probably one of the most contentious topics when it comes to how do you address and regulate platform work?

Ngofeen Mputubwele: Mm-hmm. 

Lena Simet: Where most of the workers, at least in, in ride hailing and, and food delivery and other delivery platforms, are classified as independent contractors, but the companies exert so much control over them- 

Ngofeen Mputubwele: Mm-hmm ... 

Lena Simet: that by most criteria, they should be classified as employees. Mm-hmm. Right? So they cannot set their own prices.

No? Uh-huh. For the- most contractors can, or at least there's some negotiation happening. There's no negotiation. They're given a rate- 

Ngofeen Mputubwele: Yeah ... 

Lena Simet: and they have no influence over it. 

Ngofeen Mputubwele: When did you [00:06:00] start driving for Uber?

Apraham Urphalian: I start driving in, uh, 2015 when first Uber landed in Lebanon. I'm one of the first drivers. We were almost about, uh, five, six, 10 drivers when we started at Uber.

Ngofeen Mputubwele: And how was it at first? 

Apraham Urphalian: At first it was very good. Okay. To start with the beginning- 

Ngofeen Mputubwele: Mm ... 

Apraham Urphalian: it was little bit, uh, slow, but after a month or two, we had plenty of customers, and we were doing very well. Okay. In any business, when we started that, we, we were about 20, 30, or maximum 50 drivers. Then it's, uh, the number reached to 500 or more, and then thousand or ex- uh, et cetera.

So as you know, when supply is more than the demand, the price goes down. I mean, the net, the price goes down. In this case, the demand goes, uh, becomes lower. 

Lena Simet: And what the worker earns is extremely low. 

Ngofeen Mputubwele: Lena said that the decline in [00:07:00] pay that Apraham experienced over time is something she's heard from gig workers all around the world.

If you could retire, would you? 

Apraham Urphalian: Of course, if I have the luxury of being retired, I have some income, why not? Who wouldn't in my age? 

Ngofeen Mputubwele: Yeah. And do you have, like, a pension? 

Apraham Urphalian: No. No, no pension. No. No. Mm. I have nothing. 

Ngofeen Mputubwele: Mm. 

Apraham Urphalian: I still like to be active, but to retire, I mean, you need some, uh, 

Ngofeen Mputubwele: Money ... 

Apraham Urphalian: greenback. 

Ngofeen Mputubwele: Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Lena Simet: Sometimes, like, we get the question like, "Okay, why do people do this work?" 

Ngofeen Mputubwele: Mm-hmm. 

Lena Simet: Especially if it's full of exploitation, and it's sort of exactly these situations where you're having workers that are already having a tough time in the labor market, and economic situations that makes things worse, that end up in these situations that they can't even escape or leave, right?

Mm-hmm. So in Apraham's case, Lebanon has been in a [00:08:00] economic crisis since 2019. That's when he really lost sort of all his pension savings. 

Agnes Mwongera: Mm-hmm. 

Lena Simet: And there's no universal pension in the country that would allow him to retire- 

Agnes Mwongera: Yeah ... 

Lena Simet: with an, you know, adequate pension. And so he's really forced to keep on going out on the streets every day and somehow make a living.

Ngofeen Mputubwele: Do you know if, um, the thieves were found at all? 

Apraham Urphalian: No, they didn't. They haven't been caught. 

Ngofeen Mputubwele: So let's do... We're gonna go second, our second story. This is with Agnes Mwongera in Nairobi. 

Agnes Mwongera: There's one time I got a trip not far from the town. So this client, he asked me if I'm married And, uh, I told him no, and he asked me why I'm a driver.

Being a lady, I should not be driving. I should be somewhere in the house being taken care of by someone. So I didn't want to [00:09:00] engage much on that discussion because he was already getting into my personal life. So the next thing, he put his foot on the dashboard. So I couldn't manage to use the side mirror, and I requested him that he should at least put the feet down so that I can access my side mirror.

He refused and told me that he has paid for the trip, so he should be comfortable in that car. I remember telling him that my vehicle is my office. So the way he can respect any other office, he should respect my vehicle. So it was not easy for me to drive, and he was insisting on knowing why I'm not married, why I'm, uh, I'm in this industry as a lady, and he even to, went to extent of telling me that he can cater for my bills and I will be just at home doing nothing and stay there, and maybe we can get married.

Lena Simet: What's really troubling in these circumstances is, that Agnes is describing, is this level of verbal abuse- [00:10:00] Hmm ... that many are experiencing, and it's, it's extremely common. We did a survey, um, in Texas when we did this research in the United States, and I think it was something like over half of workers had experienced verbal or physical abuse while at work.

So the question is, what do you, what do you do? What can you do? Especially because the way you respond to the situation then also determines whether you get another offer, right? Because these reviews, like the, you know, if you get, like, four out of five stars or five out of five stars, make a major difference for workers.

And sometimes as a customer you don't really think about it. You're like, "Oh, three stars is not so bad." S- three stars is horrible for workers. 

Ngofeen Mputubwele: Hmm. 

Lena Simet: If their rating, and f- on some platforms, some are very transparent and others are not. If the rating drops below something like 3.8, you essentially get no more offers.

Ngofeen Mputubwele: Hmm. 

Lena Simet: Also, the pay gets lower [00:11:00] depending on how, how low your rating is. So the ratings are, have huge impacts. So when you always are, you know, talking back to the rude customers this may actually affect your livelihoods. Yeah. So you're kind of really constrained in how you can react. 

Ngofeen Mputubwele: I'm aware as a user of platforms, so Uber, for instance

that there's, like, a rating of me as a customer. Yeah, 

Lena Simet: yeah. 

Ngofeen Mputubwele: I don't even know where it goes or whatever- Yeah ... but I'm, like, vaguely aware that that exists. 

Lena Simet: Yeah, so some platforms have ratings of customers, but for workers Some of them don't even go that far in, like, looking at the ratings and, you know, maybe it's a review.

What, what does it say? Have they been maybe harassing someone in the past? Because you have so little time to accept an order that you can't even go there. Like, your, your mind is only, how do I accept the next order? Where is it going? How much does it pay? And then you hit accept. And in fact, if you reject, that [00:12:00] also affects your rating.

There's, like, different rating systems in these apps, and one is called the acceptance rate, and if your acceptance rate drops below a certain threshold, meaning you're too picky, then you don't get orders. So you, you can't allow yourself to be picky about the customer you're picking up. You just have to go with it 

Ngofeen Mputubwele: Back to Agnes's story.

She did not go with it, especially when her customer started touching her 

Agnes Mwongera: I remember the first thing I did, I just tried to trace where the next police station is. And I remember, uh, getting to the police station, hooting, and, uh, one female police officer came out running, and I got out of my vehicle and raised my hands, and I told her that the guy in my car is harassing me.

So the next thing is that she got the, the client and took, uh-- arrested him. And, uh, the next day when the

cl- the officer called me, she [00:13:00] asked me, "Are you ready to testify?" Because after doing our own vetting, we realized that the foreigner did not have the right papers to be in our country, to be in Kenya. And you know, the app companies, they only verify the, the details of the drivers, but they don't verify the details of the clients.

The clients only need a phone, a mobile phone number, and a name, and that's all. That's what is required for them to use a cab, and maybe an email address, which they can just create random and use it. I 

Lena Simet: think in some ways Agnes did the right thing. No? She went to the, the police station. Uh, fortunately, there was a police officer that responded in a way that actually protected her.

Mm-hmm. In many ways it went well, let's say. Yeah. But, but you can see that here the facilitator was, was the Kenyan police. Yeah. And the platform seemed very absent of the picture. 

Ngofeen Mputubwele: Uh-huh. 

Lena Simet: And it reminds me of another, uh, worker we spoke [00:14:00] with in the United States. Mm. He was driving one night, and the customer in his car started doing drugs.

Ngofeen Mputubwele: Mm-hmm. 

Lena Simet: So he asked him, "Can you please stop? Because I have a small son, and he, you know, he's always with me in the car often, and I don't want anything around- Uh-huh ... and it scares me." 

Ngofeen Mputubwele: Yeah. 

Lena Simet: And then the customer got very angry with him and said, "You know, I paid for this ride. I can do whatever I want." Mm-hmm.

And he says, "Please stop," and he explained again with his son, and then the customer pulled a gun o-out and said, you know, "I'm gonna do whatever I want in here." He completed the ride and got in touch with the platform. Again, sort of, A, reporting it, and B, sharing that he's very troubled by what happened.

Ngofeen Mputubwele: Mm-hmm. 

Lena Simet: There was no support. 

Ngofeen Mputubwele: Mm-hmm. 

Lena Simet: And he, I think he stayed off the platform for maybe a month because he was also very scared a-about what happened, but he just couldn't financially afford to not keep on working, and it, it goes against so many of the labor rights protections that we have [00:15:00] that talk about workers' compensation or, or sick leave, mental health leave- 

Ngofeen Mputubwele: Yeah

Lena Simet: that platform workers should also be granted. 

Agnes Mwongera: Maybe I should also have health insurance being covered by these applications. So I'm looking for an industry that is better than how it is now. 

Ngofeen Mputubwele: After the break, one more gig worker story. And this one highlights other problems with these platforms, gamification and algorithmically driven discriminatory pricing.

Also, some good news. 

Philippe Bolopion: Hi, I'm Philippe Bolopion. I'm executive director at Human Rights Watch. Around the world and increasingly here in the United States, human rights are under attack. Authoritarian leaders are stomping on the most basic freedoms and testing how far they can go when they think no one will stop them.

At Human Rights Watch, we shine a light on abusers all over the world and push for accountability. [00:16:00] We investigate, document the facts, and press governments and institutions to protect people and pursue justice. We are independent and we don't take any government funding. That's why we rely on support from people like you.

Please donate at hrw.org slash podcast slash donate. Thank you

Graeme: Hi, I'm Graeme. I'm from Leith, Edinburgh, Scotland. I'm a food delivery rider on my push bike around towns 

Ngofeen Mputubwele: Graeme told us he's been a delivery driver in Istanbul and France, and now back in the UK in his native Scotland. 

Graeme: I really enjoy riding around on my bike delivering things of significance to people, their meal, their cigarettes, their groceries.

And, uh, I like that I can sign up when I've got the energy and clock off when I run out of energy or if I've made [00:17:00] enough money. Also, when it's not in my home city, it's a really good way just to get to know the city really, really well. You see parts of it other people don't. So a beautiful August Sunday evening, I see that my food app is offering an extra 50 pence on the pound for deliveries.

So I think, great, let's get out on the bike. Let's make hay while the sun's shining and, um, exploit the extra money as much as possible. I'm on a, a local street in Edinburgh that is a smaller street, but very, very busy all the same. And, uh, I hear this almighty roar behind me, and it's this gang of half a dozen motorcyclists.

And the first one, uh, buzzes me, goes, close passes me The second one does a wheelie going past me. And the third one, to up the ante, grabs my handlebar and tips me off the bike. I thought it was an accident at first, that [00:18:00] I'd made an error in my spatial awareness or something. But as I was going down, I looked up and saw the bike that had, uh, jostled me, that had grabbed my handlebars.

Well, it had two people on it, and the person riding pillion on the back was turned around, and their eyes were crinkled up in delight and joy at my demise. And so I knew this was an attack. I fall on my, my elbow, and, uh, basically snap the, the end nubbin of bone off. And they raced off. Of course, I had great fortune in that a unoccupied ambulance happened to be weaving a side street moments after this.

So I was literally able to flag down an unoccupied ambulance, which is like finding gold dust in your bathtub. The ambulance took me up to hospital, and my treatment began. That turned out to be close to six months that I wasn't able to do any work. Uh, so I was essentially living off the charity of friends and [00:19:00] family for five or six months before I started getting back on the bike again.

Lena Simet: I think two things really stand out in Graeme's case. One is sort of this gamification of work. 

Ngofeen Mputubwele: Yeah. You 

Lena Simet: know, where he talks about, "I basically only went out because they offered me this bonus, like this promotion they're saying that's being offered through the app, and I'm making a little bit more, which is, you know, enough of an incentive for me to go out, even if it's not of-" Yeah

"the most convenient time of the day for me." 

Ngofeen Mputubwele: Yeah. 

Lena Simet: And there's so many ways l- uh, in which these companies are, again, as you can say, undermining flexi- flexible hours or whatever, by incentivizing workers to work longer hours or, you know, engage in potentially dangerous working conditions. Like, sometimes there would be s- these promotions that are like, "Oh, just do two more trips, and you get, you know, X bonus."[00:20:00] 

It's like, well, the worker has already been on the street for 14 hours. You think it's a good idea to go for another two hours? 

Uh-huh. 

And the other thing that stands out is in, like in his case, where he was hurt at work, and he had a serious injury And he couldn't work for six months, and there was no compensation at all or support he would, would get from the company or through, like, a social security system.

Ngofeen Mputubwele: Mm-hmm. 

Lena Simet: No, and he on- as he said, he only managed to survive off the, the support of friends and family. 

Ngofeen Mputubwele: Mm-hmm. 

Lena Simet: It's such a clear violation of someone's labor rights. 

Graeme: I contacted them to say that I, I, I couldn't ride, um, I couldn't work with them. The app's response was, "Don't worry, um, we won't deactivate your account for at least six months That was the only response.

I didn't get any help or anything like that. And it all hinged on the fact that I'd [00:21:00] just left my front door, I was still on the same street that I live on, and I was literally just about to hit the go online button on the app to start receiving deliveries. But I hadn't hit it yet when I got hit by the motorcyclists, so I wasn't on their clock.

Ngofeen Mputubwele: Yeah. 

Lena Simet: Even if he was on the clock, they don't have to provide you with any of the protections that they would if they were, you know, considered workers. 

Agnes Mwongera: They were as sympathetic as you can imagine. They were still human beings at that point, so it wasn't AI or anything. But they were also, "We can't do anything for you.

Thanks for letting us know that you've had this incident." So I think they've logged it somewhere, but I have had no help, compensation, or anything, just simple responses to questions that I've put to them. The nub of the point for me is if they're going to treat us as independent contractors doing piecework, we should be treated like other independent [00:22:00] contractors.

So first of all, transparency in their billing. It's very hard to work out what the value of your work is. They refuse to share their, their algorithms, saying they're proprietorial. Well, that makes it a lot harder for us to do our work effectively and earn enough money. 

Lena Simet: To the, the point of transparency- 

Ngofeen Mputubwele: Mm

Lena Simet: both Graeme and, and another worker in Edinburgh, but then also in other places, shared with us how they did some experiments where they were, um, would be, let's say, all in the same room, and you would have an order come in that is the exact same order, but they're offered the order at a different price.

So let's say, you know, we are all opening our apps, and you get a ride for, like, $12, and I get only 

$6. 

Right? And then the question is, like, why is that? And so that's when he's saying, like, "We want more transparency." Like, why are the apps providing us these, these gigs at [00:23:00] different rates? And there's actually some really interesting research done in the United States by a professor in California that, that calls it algorithmic wage discrimination

where the apps, through the algorithms, identify your lowest reservation wage, meaning what is the lowest rate that I'm willing to accept? And through my behavior they learn that, and then they offer you lower rates depending on what you're willing to, to do it with. 

Ngofeen Mputubwele: Could you say more about the gamification?

What do you mean when you say gamification of gig work? 

Lena Simet: Yeah. So I mean, essentially the way many of these apps are designed is to also constantly keep you engaged. You always have to, like, check it, and you get these notifications of, like, you know, "There's this promotion going on this week, and if you do X amount of rides you get this bonus, or you get maybe a discount at a gas station," or whatever.

So it's, like, constantly keeping you [00:24:00] engaged. So it's not just, like, signing up for the shift. You know, like, "Oh, okay, this week I'm planning on working 40 hours," whatever. It's constantly shifting and keeps you looking at the app and engaging with it.

Ngofeen Mputubwele: Yeah. 

Lena Simet: But they need to engage with it in a certain way, and then to get the

keep the ratings up and all of that. 

Ngofeen Mputubwele: Yep. 

Lena Simet: That can be extremely stressful. The companies have created a business model that exactly circumvents having to deal with any of this, right? Any of the personnel questions or issues- Uh-huh ... that come with having workers. 

Ngofeen Mputubwele: Yeah. 

Lena Simet: Right? So it's, it's, it's not ... I guess, you know, we, we are so, so many steps behind where, like, we're not even recognizing workers as workers.

Ngofeen Mputubwele: Yeah. 

Lena Simet: They're sort of, you know, disposable contractors that if you lose one, so be it. We have, you know, hundreds of others. 

Ngofeen Mputubwele: Yeah. 

Lena Simet: And by them not having to provide the work equipment, [00:25:00] by them not having to deal with health insurance, all of these things, not having to deal with injuries or legal claims or whatever- Mm-hmm

they're saving a lot of money. 

Ngofeen Mputubwele: Right. 

Lena Simet: So at the end of the day, it's really a business model that is extremely convenient for the companies- 

Ngofeen Mputubwele: Yeah ... 

Lena Simet: and taking away any of the responsibility that comes with running a business- Yeah ... and shifting all of that onto workers. 

Ngofeen Mputubwele: Yeah. 

Lena Simet: And they're the ones suffering, and not making any money.

Ngofeen Mputubwele: Yeah. 

Lena Simet: I ... And that's really as- astounding how little people earn from these jobs. And, and some have actually very little visibility of how little they make, in part because of the whole way in which it is structured 

Ngofeen Mputubwele: So a lot of people are familiar with, uh, gig work in food delivery, in taxis. What are some of the other, other places where gig work is happening or coming?

Lena Simet: Yeah. So a big sector that is often less recognized is domestic work and care work- 

Ngofeen Mputubwele: Mm ... 

Lena Simet: where apps are really [00:26:00] taking off. And s- so for instance, in India, these platforms are extremely heavily used where you can hire someone to wash your dishes, you can hire someone to, you know, clean your house, or any forms of domestic labor in some ways.

Ngofeen Mputubwele: Mm-hmm. 

Lena Simet: We are also seeing it used in healthcare work more broadly. There's some talk about maybe teaching-related gigs also being- Mm ... you know, more through platforms, or also mental health and sort of therapy sessions more through platforms. 

Ngofeen Mputubwele: Yeah. 

Lena Simet: The way we have it seen expand in the last 10 years has really been enormous, so there's no reason to believe it's gonna stop where it's currently at.

I think the other dynamic that is really interesting here is that so many of the companies are headquartered in the US or in Europe, and that's where all the profits are being offshored. You know? So there's actually less staying in the country themselves- Wow ... and [00:27:00] more, again, being sort of, you know, pushed to richer economies anyways where then the shareholders are sitting and so forth.

Ngofeen Mputubwele: Yeah. 

Lena Simet: So in some ways it's, it's also highly extractive- Yeah ... 

Ngofeen Mputubwele: you 

Lena Simet: know, and workers are left with not much. 

Apraham Urphalian: You- this won't go into the podcast, but that's- ... that, that's literally, like, the colonial system. 

Lena Simet: Sure. 

Curtis Fox: Um, actually, why wouldn't that go on the podcast?

Ngofeen Mputubwele: That's producer Curtis Fox who was sitting in on my conversation with Lena.

Lena Simet: Yeah, I, yeah. 

Ngofeen Mputubwele: Great. I... Oh, can we talk about it? Okay. Well, that's what I fi- Yeah. That's what... Okay. That's what I think. Like, I, I... 

I... But to me it just, 

Lena Simet: it- 100%.

Ngofeen Mputubwele: Yeah. To me it seems like a colonial system. 

Lena Simet: Yeah. 

Ngofeen Mputubwele: Right, Lena? 

Lena Simet: Yeah. Yeah. Very, very extractive. Mm-hmm. And the, the workers and the countries where, you know, these companies operate in have very little in terms of benefits from it.

Ngofeen Mputubwele: Yeah. 

Lena Simet: You know, and everything is being offshored to, yeah, shareholders in, in wealthier countries. 

Ngofeen Mputubwele: Yeah. Now the good news. In June 2026, the International Labor Organization, which [00:28:00] is part of the UN, agreed on a new international treaty to regulate platform work. 

Lena Simet: It's really a landmark treaty where for the first time algorithmic management is taken on as a labor rights issue that needs to be tackled because there's a recognition that something needs to be done.

And, um, and last year, uh, for the first time countries sat down and said, "Okay, what do, what do we need? What do we want to do here?" So for the first time there's, there's a recognition that, um, these protections that are in the convention should be for all workers, so not only the ones that are considered employees, but also for, you know, they call it sort of informal workers, like the ones that are, for instance, contractors, and also that governments should take steps to prevent misclassification.

Ngofeen Mputubwele: Mm-hmm. 

Lena Simet: And then there's protections in there around, um, harassment. So some of the stories that we heard about today would be [00:29:00] addressed through it. 

Ngofeen Mputubwele: Yeah. 

Lena Simet: Protections around pay, you know, that workers should be given a, a fair wage. Protections around algorithmic management, that there ought to be transparency and on, especially decisions that affect workers directly, whether it's related to deactivation and so forth, there needs to be a human involvement.

Ngofeen Mputubwele: Mm. 

Lena Simet: Uh, or at least human, you know, type of engagement in, in the process. 

Ngofeen Mputubwele: Mm-hmm. 

Lena Simet: It's a really, I would say, robust framework to start Creating guardrails in, in platform work 

Ngofeen Mputubwele: But what happens next for that thing to actually be, you know, used and enforceable- Take effect ... yeah, to take effect? So 

Lena Simet: i- it's a bit of a process where countries now need to ratify the convention, and that can be a lengthy process.

The quickest process may be a year. 

Ngofeen Mputubwele: Mm-hmm. 

Lena Simet: And we really hope that as many countries as possible will sign on and will ratify and commit to better working conditions. 

Ngofeen Mputubwele: Mm-hmm. 

Lena Simet: And [00:30:00] then once it's ratified, the governments are obligated to translate it into domestic law. 

Ngofeen Mputubwele: Yep. 

Lena Simet: And workers can then use it as legal instrument to, to hold companies or governments to account.

Ngofeen Mputubwele: Last question. If you're listening and you use a platform for services, what's like one thing that you would have people think about? 

Lena Simet: Yeah. I think always keep the worker in mind, because I know that sometimes, you know, people can get frustrated like, "Oh, where's the food?" Or, "The food is a little bit cold," or whatever.

And it's like, yes, but it's often not the worker's fault, and don't punish them by giving a low rating. I think that's really important to keep in mind. So be kind to the worker. Also, I have to say that many of them really rely on tips. 

Agnes Mwongera: Mm-hmm. 

Lena Simet: Even if the platforms tell you no need or whatever, like it's actually half of people's earnings is often through tips.

I usually prefer to give it in cash so I know it actually goes to the worker and not being [00:31:00] captured by companies. 

Ngofeen Mputubwele: Thank you. 

Lena Simet: Thank you. 

Ngofeen Mputubwele: You can read more about this on Human Rights Watch's website, hrw.org. You've been listening to Rights & Wrongs from Human Rights Watch. This episode was produced by me and Curtis Fox.

Sophie Soloway is the associate producer. Ife Fatunase and Anthony Gale are the executive producers. I'm Ngofeen Mputubwele. Thanks for listening.