Loaded Gun Recap: El Salvador, the Alien Enemies Act, and What Happened to Roger

Ngofeen: This is Ngofeen with a short pre episode announcement. We produced this episode earlier this year in May, and we thought it was a good time to run it again because it's about the way the US is treating immigrants. It's about an immigrant to the United States who is very badly treated by the US government.

A lot has changed since May, and at the end of the episode, we're gonna give you an update, so please stay tuned for that.

ROGER: Hola tío, como está todo? Feliz Cumpleano. Que le pasa un fine excelente. Que Dio le Bendiga sempre.

HOST: Roger Eduardo Molina Acevedo: 29 years old, Venezuelan. Millennial. From the state of Aragua. That was a message of him calling to wish his Uncle Noel a happy birthday.

MUSIC

Roger is not married, but has a common-law relationship with his partner Daniela Nuñez. No kids. They just landed at the airport. Together. Their first time on U.S. soil. She’s standing beside him. They make their way from the plane towards border control and customs.

Roger graduated from high school back in Venezuela. He worked at his family hardware stores. Loves soccer. He has a tattoo of a soccer ball, a pine forest, a REAL madrid Crown, and an infinity sign with the word family. 

He and Daniela have been cleared to enter the States conditionally, approved for refugee status.  

The US State Department runs a program called the Safe Mobility Initiative, that vetted them for months.  

Roger’s uncle, Noel, told him, “If you’re gonna go to the United States — do it the legal way.”

 NOEL: Irregular, no usted busca la manera, pero de irse de manera regular, okey,

Host: January 9, 2025, they’re at the Houston Airport. They’ve just made it through the visitor’s line - the line for non-citizens - to Border Control. It’s the final days of the Biden administration. And even though Roger and Daniela have been approved as refugees, the Border Patrol has the final say as to whether they’re allowed to stay. stayed in a hotel paid for by the International Organization for Migration, the entity that helped them both get refugee status. Roger sends his uncle a 34 second video giving him a little tour of the space.

Juan:  Cuándo fue la primera vez que que supiste que algo podría estar mal con tu sobrino que le podría haber pasado algo?

Host: That’s Juan Papier translating, he's deputy Director for the Americas at Human Rights Watch. And he’s translating between me and Uncle Noel. Noel is Venezuelan too, but lives in the Dominican Republic. My question to Uncle Noel: When was the first moment you realized that something was wrong with your nephew?

 NOEL: Ya me había llamado para decirme que que todo había salir mal.  

Juan:  He called me saying that things weren't well, it was immediate. The agent at the border starts asking Roger about his tattoos. The migration control, uh, they stopped him, uh, and they about one of the tattoos he has, uh, and they asked him questions about the tattoo. What does this tattoo mean? They said that the tattoo was associated with some of the criminal groups that operate in Venezuela. 

Host: There's no evidence that tattoos of a pine forest, a soccer ball,  Real Madrid or an infinity sign with the word family on it are associated with Venezuelan gangs. But Donald Trump is about to assume office, and he's blasting Venezuelans suggesting trend gang members have overrun American cities and he's gonna deport them. In the months ahead, we'll hear stories from people who've been deported about border patrol officers that seem emboldened and simply ignore their attempts to seek asylum.

 On today’s episode, forced disappearances at the U.S. border - the deportation of the Venezuelans.

This is Rights & Wrongs, a podcast from Human Rights Watch. I'm Ngofen Mputubwele. I am a writer, a lawyer, and a radio producer. Human Rights Watch asked me to look at human rights hotspots around the world through the eyes and ears of people on the front lines of history.

This week, The Loaded Gun: 

 NOEL: Roger es mi sobrino, pero vamos a decir tú, eh, yo lo siento como muy claro. Y él se apoyaba muchísimo en, es más, se apoyaba much demente en su propio papá. Sí, todo este proceso que él ha vivido siempre me llamaba todos los días, eh? Me decía cómo se sentía que, pues obviamente me siento muy mal por lo que lo está viviendo. Y más aún, porque en este memento no puedo hacer nada. 

Host: Says Uncle Noel Roger is my nephew. He relied on me as a support even more than his own father. This whole situation that he has endured, he has called every day, telling how he feels. And I feel ill knowing what he’s undergoing. And what’s worse, there’s nothing I can do. 

Host:  One of the big conversations being had in the courts right now surrounds a law called the Alien Enemies Act.

ARCHIVAL-PBS NEWS HOUR: The supreme court ruled late yesterday that the Trump administration can continue to use a rare 18th century law war authority to deport… (fade down)

AKSHAYA:  The Alien Enemies Act of 1798. {It}  allows the president to take really, uh, broad actions against people who aren't citizens of this country. It enables the president to direct people who work for him, to detain people, to deport them, to also restrict how they live their lives.

Host: This is Akshaya Kumar, Director of Crisis Advocacy, Human Rights Watch.

NGOFEEN: And so the law has only been used, uh, four times now, this fourth time is this year by President Trump?

NGOFEEN: four?

AKSHAYA: Yeah, four. 

NGOFEEN: Oh, okay. 

AKSHAYA: You can count them. 

Ngofeen: Oh, wow. 

Akshaya: … On your hand. So I said, this thing's only been used four times. The other three times we're in wars. Like wars that we study in history, books we know about them. World War II, World War I, the War of 1812. The reason that our current president has deployed this act is he says that, uh, this country is being invaded by a Venezuelan gang. 

Host: Back to Roger. 

Juan:  He got very nervous. Uh, he thought that they would do something to him. Uh, the officers threatened to call the FBI and to get him arrested. He called me. He was very scared, uh, think thinking that something bad could happen to him

Host: The next day Roger is still at the Dallas/Fort Worth airport in Texas.  Daniela has been deported. Roger’s alone.  Uncle Noel happens to have Venezuelan friends in Texas. They put him in touch with an immigration attorney. Uncle Noel calls the immigration attorney, who says, 

NOEL: Eh? Él me dijo mira,  tiene dos opciones 

Host: Look, your nephew has two options. Either: 

Noel: o él va a la corte para hacer la solicitud asilo 

Host: Roger goes to court to request asylum

Noel: o él va a ser deportado. 

Host: Or Roger will be deported. 

Noel:  Sonos sonos dos opciones. Eh a él lo llevaron desde el aeropuerto a un primer centro de atención que se llama Montgomery. 

Host: From the airport, Roger is taken to a detention facility, then  moved around from detention center to detention center, and eventually he's transferred to a facility called the Montgomery Processing Center, also in Texas. Uncle Noel stays in touch, obviously. After consulting with the lawyer, the lawyer says, Look, given the look of things in the U.S., your nephew is better off requesting to self-deport to Venezuela. 

Host: Uncle Noel relays this info to his nephew.

Noel:  El el abogado nos hizo una recomendación que nosotros la rendimos. El abogado nos dijo, eh, ya se acerca la toma de posición del preside de Donald Trump. Yo le recomiendo no quedarse esperando la corte para para pelear por el asi, sino por el contrario, pedir la solicitud de de retiro de asi civil que pronunciaba a la posibilidad de solicitar a la civil. Yo se documenté a él. Y él me dijo absolutamente que sí, porque ya él no quería estar en estados unidos.

Host: Nephew Roger says, Uncle Noel, I want to get the hell home. To Venezuela. 

Noel: Me digo, tío que me quiero oír. No quiero estar un minu más acá. 

Host: I don’t want to be here one minute longer. Reminder, his partner, Daniela, is gone. Things might be bad in Venezuela but it’s better than being detained in the US.

Noel: No le he contado algo que que que digamos que importante. Es que los entrevistaron a los dos a Roger y a Daniela a, eh, pero a Daniela sí, la deportaron a manos.

Host: Roger  is transferred to Joe Corley Detention Center and that's when things get bad.

JUAN:  We made many requests twice, asking about his condición, eh, telling them constantly. He was not a criminal that he had no committed any crime, eh and they told us there was. No he didn't have any criminal record in the United states and they said that they didn't know way he was being held we as multiple times for him to be eh deported but they didn’t answer.

Noel:  Y la situación se tornó especialmente complicada cuando lo trasladaron a un centro de atención que se llama Joe el College de pretención center

Host: When he arrived at the center, Uncle Noel tells, he called me crying and very very nervous. He told me that they changed his detention outfit to one that was for criminals. I.e. for someone who had committed a serious crime, a red jumpsuit.

NOEL: a lo lo hicieron de robo, necesidad. 

él me llamó muy asustado diciéndome que por qué le estaban haciendo esto? Que qué hago? 

Host: He called me asking, why are they doing this? What do I do?

Noel: Entonces yo le pregunté que si era solamente a él que lo habían vestido de esa manera. Y me dijo no a todos los venezolanos nos colocaron de ese color.

Host: So I asked… are they doing this to you or to everyone? And he said…. To everyone who is Venezuelan, they are making us wear this color.

Noel: De robo. Entonces yo tratando de de calmarlo poco, yo le digo, bueno, pero si son todos los venezolanos, eh? Tranquilízate. Porque cuando tú llegues a Venezuela, tú no has cometido delito, por lo cual no va a pasar nada.

Juan:  So I was trying to calm him down and i told him, eh? If that's happening to all Venezuelans, don't worry when you are sent back to Venezuela you will be okay, because you have never committed a crime and nothing wrong to happen to you

NOEL: Yo siento que ya estaba todo organizado para mover a los venezolanos bajo la ley de enemigos de extranjero. 

Host: But, Uncle Noel tells me, I feel that all of this was organized to move the Venezuelans under the Alien Enemies Act.

Host: A month passes And then finally, he gets some news. 

NOEL:  El día 13 de marzo en donde me llamó muy contento, pu que les habían dicho que iban a ser reportado. 

Host: March 13. Phone call. Roger. 

Juan:  on the thirteenth of march. He called me he was very happy because finally. He was told he was going to be deported.

Host: He’s going to be deported. 

Noel:  muy tío. Se acabó la pesadilla. Me van a deportar que mañana nos vamos.

Juan:  He told me that the nightmare was over And this is something I like to emphasize because they were lied to, they were all told that they were going to be sent back to Venezuela.

Noel:  Les dieron porque todos estaban contentos porque les dijeron que la deportación sería Pablo. Venezuela, okey,

Host:  ICE has this online detainee locator system, where you can check on the status of someone who’s been detained. Whenever Roger is shifted from detention center to detention center, normally it should be located on the ICE website. Then, Roger suddenly disappears from the immigration registry. 

[MUSIC]

NOEL:  en lunes … llamé a primera hora. 

Host:  Monday morning, Noel tells me, as soon as they open, I call the detention center.

Noel: Y me dijeron en el centro de atención y hidalgo que él ya no estaba allí. Roer ya no está aquí. Dónde está? No le podemos dar información. 

Host:  Roger isn't here. Where is he? We can't give you any other information. Call this other detention center. Which one? And they give me the number.

Noel: Llame a otro centro de atención a cuál? Y me daba mi número. Llamaba a ese número, me decía lo mismo, no está, llame a otro y me daban otro número.

Host:  I call this number, they told me the same thing, call another detention center, and they gave me another number, 

Noel: Yo pasé literalmente toda la mañana llamando centro de detención en Texas. Llamé a más de 10 y en ninguno me daban información, eh? 

Host:  I spent literally the whole morning calling immigration detention centers in Texas. I called at least 10 and no one gave me any information. 

Noel: Al final de la tarde de ese día, desde el l 17 octubre, conseguir el número de la sede central de ice en en Houston, 

Host:  At the end of that afternoon, around 5pm, I got the number for the central office of ICE in Houston. 

Noel: llamé a ese número literalmente llorando que quería información de mi sobrino mismo.

Host:  And I called this number, literally, crying. That I wanted information about my nephew.

NOEL: Y una señora cuando no toca, estaba llorando. Me dijo lo único que te puedo decir es que tu sobrino fue extraído de los estados unidos. Manda

Host:  And a woman on the phone when she noticed I was crying she said, the only thing I can tell you is that your nephew was removed from the United States.  

Then crickets. 

Then, later that week:

ARCHIVAL-CBS NEWS: The pictures are striking. More than 200 Venezuelans flown on government planes out of Arlington, Texas, last week.

In the news, the images of planes at an airport in El Salvador. A maximum security prison in El Salvador. 

ARCHIVAL-CBS NEWS: One of the world’s most notorious prisons. Heads shaven. Arms shackled.

Juan:  It wasn't until Wednesday when CVS News published a leaked, um, list of people who were sent to El Salvador that we were able to confirm that he was sent there.

ARCHIVAL-CBS NEWS: Today, CBS news has obtained a list of 100s of people deported. Hundreds of alleged gang members sent this past week to El Salvador 

El Salvador, not Venezuela. There’s a leak. A list of people deported on that plane is leaked to CBS: 

Akshaya: There were a bunch of people on those planes, like 200, 240 people.

137 of those men, the government says they removed under the Alien Enemies Act. Yeah. Crazy thing. Yeah. We are a month and a half out since that happened. They still have not said the names of the 137 people. Yeah. Imagine. Yeah. If that was your family member, they haven't even acknowledged the actual names.

So the only thing we've got the government to say is 137 of those people were removed under the Alien Enemies Act. The other a hundred some were removed under other legal authorities. 

Host: Here's the thing, we don't actually know under what authority the US removed Roger. Because there's no transparency, no due process.

 All we know is that the US sent a bunch of Venezuelans to El Salvador, many of them under the Alien Enemies Act, and Rohe was swept up among them. 

--

NGOFEEN: Have you spoken to him since he’s been there? 

JUAN: Has podido hablar con él desde que lo enviaron al salvador. 

NOEL: No hemos hablado ni una palabra con nada.

JUAN: We haven’t been able to communicate a single word to him. 

NOEL:  Ellos están siendo víctima de un delito del esa humanidad que se llama desaparición forzosa. Lamentablemente, eh, ejecutada por un país al cual le tengo mucho cariño y mucho como tengo en estados unidos, pero lamentablemente entraron en una onda terrible de hacer desapariciones de los migrantes. 

Host: Noel says, they are victims of a crime called forced disappearance, done by a country that I respect deeply, i.e. the United States, but they have become part of a wave for disappearances of migrants.  

 If you watch the videos of the Venezuelans landed in an El Salvador, it is disturbing people's heads held down shorn like sheep by loads of armed officers. Reminder, Roger, 29 Millennial, has no criminal record, none. And there's something else he doesn't have now due process. 

This is the, this is the situation that we've been hearing about in the news with like, turn the plane back.

AKSHAYA:  Yeah, that’s what this is. This isn't even their home country. They were just sent to a third country to be kept in a jail. Um, and we don't know the details of that agreement. Not only has the government not made public, the names of the people who they put in this jail, they haven't told the Congress, they haven't told the public like, what are the terms, what are the El Salvador, uh, what, sorry, what does the El Salvador government say it's gonna do? Are we paying them for this? How are the people gonna be treated? Yeah. Is it at the same standards as a prison in the United States or not? Um, and a lot of it is just completely unknown. 

Ngofeen: Mm-hmm. 

Akshaya: … It's the kind of thing that… we typically document in, uh, some of the other crisis situations mm-hmm.

That I work on. Right. And forced disappearances, people being detained in the context of, um. A repressive government that doesn't let them talk to their lawyers or their families. Uh, and they don't know how long they're gonna be in jail or when they'll get out, or even what charges they're being held under. Mm-hmm. Like that's the, the situation that these people are facing and it's at the hands of the US government… is using. 

Host:  Now that we're here, my lawyer brain wants to understand how we got here legally, because like it or not, the US government is claiming that it is acting legally. So how is it making that argument?

That's after the break.

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Host:  So this is the Text of the Alien Enemies Act. Whenever there is a declared war between the United States and any foreign nation or government or any invasion or predatory incursion is attempted or threatened against the territory of the United States by any foreign nation or government, and the President makes public proclamation of the event, all natives, citizens, denisons or subjects of the hostile nation or government being of the age 14 years and upward, who shall be within the United States and not actually naturalized, shall be liable to be apprehended, restrained, secured, and removed as alien enemies.  

Can you tell me about the history of the law a bit? 

AKSHAYA: Yeah, so the act came about, uh, back in the 1790s. The newly formed American government, this was the second president, uh, John Adams was worried about, uh, French citizens who were on US territory and, uh, French influence over this young American government. And so he, uh, helped pass a set of four laws that are called the Alien And Sedition Acts. And The Alien Enemies Act was one of those, um, these laws were basically, uh, so broad and problematic that they were almost immediately criticized Thomas Jefferson, who ended up being this country's third president, launched a huge campaign against them, said this is, um, a recipe for presidential dictatorship, almost that it's, uh, something that gives far too much power to the executive branch because it limited what could be published through the Sedition acts, and then it put all of these restrictions on people who weren't nationals of this country. 

Ngofeen: Mm-hmm. 

AKSHAYA: … because of that blowback … Adams was kind of pushed out of power mm-hmm.  And Jefferson took over, uh, and he campaigned on how. Problematic, these acts were. Three of the acts were basically repealed or replaced almost immediately, as soon as Jefferson got into power. Okay. Um, this one was never used then. That's why I called the loaded gun.

It was the fourth act and they never had cause to use it because there actually didn't end up being a war with France 

Ngofeen: Uhhuh. 

Akshaya: He didn't end up using this act but the act, uh, stayed on the books and then it was picked up again three times. One during the war of 1812.  Uh, when the US was fighting the British. And then two times in World War I and World War II.

[ MUSIC.]

Host: Here’s a story about when this was used in World War I. When the U.S. was, reminder, fighting Germany.

AKSHAYA: Among the people who were detained and these people like detained for over a year, almost two years, um, was a German born conductor, uh, of the Boston Symphony Orchestra and pretty much the whole symphony.

And they put them all in this detention camp in Georgia. Uh, and some of the reasons why they rounded them up were they talk in German at the rehearsals. Uh, they didn't play the stars strangled banner when someone requested it once. And, um, the guy, the, you know, the, the German conductor, Carl Muck was his name.

He actually had Swiss citizenship, but they still rounded him up because of his place of birth. Uh, and that. Example to me. Um, it just, uh, it paints such a vivid picture. 'cause um, there was this whole group, they were kept in a camp in Georgia, and they protested what was being done to them because they, you know, had, it was hot.

It was sticky. Yeah. And they weren't able to get out. And they, um, decided to play Mozart, uh, which is a German, um, famous classical music composer. 

Host: Technically Austrian, but German in the broad sense. 

Akshaya: They decided to play Mozart in the nude in the prison camp. And this has been documented as their protest act. Uh, and they still were kept there. You know, it, it got some public attention, but it took many, many months for them to get out.

Uh, and he was just, you know, this was just one example.

Host:  So. I asked Akshayaa the painful question. Isn't the government's argument here that we're being invaded? In other words, we said. At the start of the term said that we're being, we're being invaded. And we've specifically said as to the, you know, we perceive the Venezuelan gang as an invasion. So that's, that's the, that's the war declaration or that's the, and if, if, if not war declaration, that is what, um, meets the sort of threshold, like the war isn't required in the law textually.

And so we're doing something that like, yeah, there is a war. That's why we said there's an invasion. Like, what's sort of your response to that? 

Akshaya: Yeah, so I, I have two ways to think about this. Yeah. One is, that's actually the whole reason why we wrote this report. Human Rights Watch has published a report on the situation unfolding under the Alien Enemies Act because the law in and of itself is a problem, and Congress should have, even before President Trump came into office.

Have gotten rid of it. Mm-hmm. Struck it off the books, repealed it, and then we wouldn't be in the situation of reading between the lines or allowing it to be instrumentalized for patently absurd claims. Yeah. Right. So a simple solution is get rid of this law. Yeah. Um, the other part of it is, it's true that the law says that the president can invoke it.

In contexts where the country is facing an invasion or a predatory incursion, but those claims have to be borne out by facts and it's, I mean, it's really not about you and me deciding, but I would hope that judges are given the opportunity to scrutinize that.  

Judge:  Since I recorded that interview with Akia, at least three federal judges have done just that in New York, Texas, and Colorado.  

Akshaya: Judges issued orders looking at the invasion claim and dismissing it as laughable.  And I think something that's really concerning about the way the Trump administration has been using this law these past couple weeks is they're saying not only can we unilaterally make this declaration, we can then say that.

Individuals are part of this gang based on extremely flimsy indicia things like, oh, they have tattoos, or they're wearing Jordan sneakers, or they maybe talked to someone who was a gang member, we think. Mm-hmm. Um, like. Very flimsy assertions and we shouldn't be questioned about these things and judges shouldn't even question us about if there's, uh, an invasion or not.

It's our decision, Uhhuh, and that's where I think the whole idea of separation of powers comes into play. And I feel like that's what we should talk more about, this country, the way democracy has. Been so resilient in this country over many decades and generations is because the executive branch is when it's tempted to overreach checked by either Congress or the judiciary.

That's the Supreme Court. The scary thing that we're seeing right now, and it's playing out with this case with the Alien Enemies Act, is when judges are attempting to check that executive power. The executive branch is kind of saying, nah. Hmm. We're gonna do it anyway. I think one of the most ridiculous things, um, that I've seen when researching this is as a part of this whole debate.

Mm-hmm. Uh, the president of El Salvador, who's big on social media, 

Host: this is President Nayib Bukele, 

Akshaya: wrote Oopsie. Uh. Commenting about the judge's orders. Uhhuh. So Uhhuh, it's like they openly know what they were supposed to do. Yeah. And they're rubbing it in the faces of the judges that they're not listening.

[MUSIC]

NGOFEEN (to Noel): You know at the beginning the of the year lot of people do new year resolutions right where you're like thinking of the year ahead if you could go back and talk to yourself on January first and sort of prepare yourself for the year to come. what would you tell yourself?

Noel: Vale, ojalá yo pudiera volver para el para el tener o porque haría todo lo posible para que él no realice ese viaje. . . .

JUAN:  i wish i could go back to January first and i will do everything en my power to stop from going to the United states or to give him advice i used to admire the United states but i can say the same right now. I've been going to the United States for the last fifteen years and this year for the first time i felt i felt fear. I feel fear of being in prison of being accused. It's been a very difficult year so far i ask god every day for this nightmare to end.  

Host: This is the point of these policies, to make people scared.  

i don't sleep well and every time i wake up in the middle of the night i tell god that if he's waking me Nephew can sleep, i am fine with that because im sure he's having a very difficult situation that es incredibly unfair.

Host: I have to say. This is the point of these policies. To frighten people. That doesn’t make them legal.

NGOFEEN:  Last question, what would you tell your nephew if you could? 

JUAN: Y la última pregunta es qué le dirías a tu sobrino si pudieras hablar con él? 

NOEL: Un abrazo enorme.  Hay un abrazo enorme. . . .

JUAN:  Give a big hug. In fact am traveling to Venezuela tomorrow and I pray to god that he comes t Venezuela and we can meet and see each again and hug each other again 

Noel:  Te que que sería maravilloso esa oportunidad de reencuentro, eh?

Fíjate algo, eh? Como una semana antes de de que lo deportan, él me dijo que se quería suar que ella no quería vivir esa situación. Si eso me lo digo estando en estados unidos donde hablábamos todos los días, no me quiero imaginar qué está pasando esa.

Juan: When he was in the United States, he called me one day saying he wanted to commit suicide. And if that’s how he felt in the States, I can’t imagine how he’s feeling in El Salvador. 

Juan:  Sentimos mucho, noél. 

Ngofeen: So that was the episode we produced last May, and as I said, there've been a lot of changes. Here's just one. On July 18th as part of a prisoner exchange, 252 Venezuelans the US sent to CECOT in El Salvador were released.

Roger was one of them. He's back in Venezuela and he joins me now on Zoom, along with Human Rights Watch’s Juan Pappier, who's gonna translate and also answer a few questions I have for him. Roger, first question is just, uh, a hard one, I guess, but how are you?

Roger/Spanish: In spite of what happened, I’m fine.

Ngofeen: Now you're back in Venezuela. have you, like, have you been able to start your life back together? And in particular we were curious if you've been able to see Daniela, your partner.

Roger/English/Translation: His partner came from Colombia. She was in Colombia. She came back to Venezuela in September, and they were able to meet, to hug, to kiss each other. It was very emotional and here they are trying to restart their lives and, yeah, trying to, to, to start again.

Ngofeen: When you talk to people, what do you say about what it was like inside of CECOT?

Roger/English: From the moment I, we arrived, I said, my God, what is gonna happen to us? Then I realized we were in CECOT because I had seen the prison in some videos. They beat us since the moment we arrived. If you spoke out loud, they hit you. If you didn't go to bed, they hit you. For moments, I thought we were in hell because when they were not hitting me, they were hitting my cell mates, and the worst part was not knowing anything.

We didn't know what was going to happen with us. We didn't know anything about the situation.

Ngofeen: Juan, you and others at Human Rights Watch have been investigating what happened in CECOT, and you'll issue a report soon. Can you tell me some of what you learned so far?

Roger/English: So far we have interviewed 40 people who like Roger were detained in CECOT and more than a hundred of their family members. We are documenting the torture that these people endured.

They were beaten during daily searches. They were beaten when they allegedly disobeyed prison rules. They were beaten as they were transferred to CECOT. They were beaten when the US Secretary of Homeland Security, Kristi Noem, visited. They were constantly and repeatedly beaten and tortured in prison.

These cases of torture occurred both in the hallways of the prison and also in what guards called “the island”, an isolation cell, very small, of only a couple of meters, that was dark, that had very limited natural light and natural air where people were held in complete isolation as punishment for supposedly disobeying prison rules such as speaking with other detainees or showering at the wrong time.

Ngofeen: Thank you, Juan. And actually, I just have one last question for Roger. What do you want people outside of Venezuela, people like me in the states or in other parts of the world? What do you want them to know about your experience?

Roger/English: I've been waiting for people to ask me this question because I really want to send a message to the world. Some people say that we are lying. That it is not true that we were beaten. Some say that this is a show that the Venezuelan government is trying to put out to accuse the US government. That's not true.

But if you don't believe me, if you don't believe my 252 cellmates, then ask President Naib Bukele of El Salvador, ask President Donald Trump, ask the director of the CECOT prison, to release the videos because they were recording us all the time. And in those recordings you could see how we were beaten, how we were forced to kneel, how we were humiliated. And I'm sure they will not release those recordings because if they do, all the lies that Bukele is putting out will end.

Ngofeen: Roger, thank you so much for talking to us. I know briefly, and I know you've talked to so many people, uh, but thank you. I really appreciate it. 

Roger: Vale, gracias, que estén bien.

Ngofeen:In a few weeks, Human Rights Watch will release a report about what went on with the Venezuelan immigrants in CECOT. So keep an eye out for that. You've been listening to Rights and Wrongs from Human Rights Watch.

This episode was produced by me and Curtis Fox. Sophie Soloway is the associate producer, Ifé Fatunase and Stacy Sullivan are the executive producers. Thanks also to Anthony Gale. I'm Ngofeen Mputubwele. I'll be back with a new episode in two weeks. Thanks for listening.