“Why Are You Gay?” -- From Viral Clip to State-Sanctioned Violence

[TV news music from program] 

Host: It's 2012, it's morning, and we're watching Ugandan TV. 

NBS/ Simon Kaggwa Njala: Hello and welcome back, this is the topical discussion on The Morning Breeze on NBS television. My name is Simon Kaggwa Njala. And well, we are also weighing in on the raging debate on homosexuality in Uganda... [fade under] 

Host: Simon Kaggw a Njala didn't know it, but he was about to become famous. Not just Ugandan-TV famous but internationally-internet famous... 

 NBS/ Simon Kaggwa Njala: We bring in the studio this morning one of the gay rights activists, Mister... should I call you Mister? Pepe Julian Onziema. Thank you for coming in.  

Pepe: Thank you for ha... Simon: Good morning.  

Pepe: Morning to you.  

Simon: Why are you gay? 

Host: Yes he did. Right out of the box his first question, to a trans man, was... 

Simon: Why are you gay? 

Host: First question! There's a long pause, and then Pepe Julian Onziema answers. 

Pepe: Who says I'm gay? 

Host: Another long pause. 

Simon: You are gay! You are a transgender! 

Pepe: Why, what shows that I'm gay? 

Simon: You are a transgender and you are a gay rights activist... (fade under) 

Host: This is just the beginning of an interview that goes on for, get ready, 70 minutes! Seven zero – 70 minutes! There was a call-in segment, that did not go so well… 

[yelling] 

 …And an anti-gay activist, a pastor, in the studio…. 

Pastor: It’s a gay disease, get over it!  

Pepe: It’s not true.  

Simon: Pastor, relax!  

Pepe: Actually it’s your ignorance.  

Host: This interview… went… viral! Not just like for a few months viral. A meme was born. Gifs, videos, remixes. Here's just one... 

[Autotune remix] 

Host: I’ve laughed at this over the years, clipped on the internet. It’s funny, but it’s also always made me feel extremely uncomfortable. I’ve never dug into it, but I knew there’s a bigger story here. One that I instinctively, as an African, knew wouldn't funny. 

That was 2012. In 2013, the Uganda Parliament passed what became known as the “Kill the Gays Bill.” Which became law in March of 2014 but later that year, it was struck down by the courts on procedural grounds. Then, in 2023, Parliament passed an even more draconian bill… 

DW: Uganda's parliament has voted to increase prison sentences for homosexual acts... 

WION: This new law prescribes death penalty for some homosexual acts. 

Host: It’s called the Anti-Homosexuality Act, 2023, and on May 26 of that year, Ugandan President Yoweri Museveni signed it into the law. 

WION: A twenty-year old man has become the first Ugandan to be charged with aggravated homosexuality... 

Host: The new law calls for life imprisonment for sex between two people of the same sex, and death for what is called "aggravated homosexuality." The law also stipulates that you can face 20 years in prison for the “promotion” of homosexuality... 

Oryem: This one is especially problematic because it's really vague. 

Host: This is Rights & Wrongs, a podcast from Human Rights Watch. I'm Ngofeen Mputubwele. I am a writer, a lawyer, and a radio producer. Human Rights Watch asked me to look at human rights hotspots around the world through the eyes and ears of the people on the front lines of history. 

This week, when “Are you gay?” is a life-or-death question. In this episode we’re going to look at what led up to the Anti-Homosexuality Act, 2023, and what it now means for human rights in Uganda. 

Emmanuel: I knew 

Ngofeen: You said you knew when you were seven. 

Emmanuel: Seven years. Yeah. 

Ngofeen: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

Emmanuel: Yeah. I would look at boys instead of girls, so I didn't know what it was... 

Ngofeen: Mm-hmm. 

Emmanuel: But later, as I grew older, I understood. 

Host: This is a young man in his twenties we're calling "Emmanuel." He's gay, but his family doesn't know that. He has a girlfriend, she’s a lesbian, and he says they use each other for cover. Two years ago, on March 30th, 2023, Emmanuel got on his phone…  

Emmanuel: I go on Grindr, wanted a hookup.  

Host: Emmanuel says that in Uganda no one puts their real picture on Grindr. You put up a picture of a movie star or singer or something. Only after you establish contact with someone, then you might DM your picture… 

Emmanuel: He sends me his picture. He directs me to his place, which was like, um, 30 minutes away from my home. 

Host: Emmanuel lives in Kampala, the capital of Uganda. A large, sprawling African city. He takes a Boda-boda, a motorcycle taxi, to meet his date, and when he gets to the gate outside the man's house, he texts him. 

Emmanuel: So when I texted him, I told him, ‘oh, I'm here’. He didn't come from inside the gate. He came, uh, from out and said, uh, this is not my home, but it's, you know, somewhere near my home. 

 Host: Right away Emmanuel senses that something is not quite right. Not only does the guy apparently not live where he said he lived, the photo Emmanuel received doesn't match the person in front of him. 

Emmanuel: I just wanted to maybe leave, but in a friendly way, not like, you know, just ghost the person. 

So after that, uh, we sit somewhere in the open and he's like, ‘I'm not gay. I just work for the Police. But from talking with you, I feel like you're a nice person and uh, I don't want to hand you over to the police’. By that time he had my phone in his hands. I had given him my phone. Like he, he asked me, what type of phone are you using? You know, like he's looking at my phone. 

So immediately when he said, I'm not gay, I'm, I'm working with the police, I didn't wait to hear other words. I was already, you know, fighting to get my phone from out, out of his hands. 

Ngofeen: Is your reaction like you’re thinking or is your reaction like physical, like just like movement? 

Emmanuel: I think it was movement. I had to run away 'cause by the time you go to police, nobody's going to ever see you again. 

Host: This is taking place just a few weeks BEFORE the anti-Homosexuality Law, 2023 is signed into law. Gay sex has already been criminalized, though the penalties aren't quite as extreme as they’d soon become. So, when Emmanuel says, “nobody will see you again,” he’s talking about not getting out of prison anytime soon... 

Emmanuel: If the family has like money they'll get them out… 

Ngofeen: Mm-hmm. 

Emmanuel: …somehow, yes. But if your family is homophobic, now in my case, and then they don't have like money, then you are gonna stay in prison. 

Host: Emmanuel says he is close to his family, but he did not think he could count on them. 

Emmanuel: I'm good at hiding it and my family, no one knows. 

Ngofeen: Mm-hmm. 

Emmanuel: My mom, her, she would send me pictures of, you know, like, someone with, uh, intestine out from, from the ass, you know, those pictures, nasty pictures… 

Host: ...explicit pictures of naked men with prolapsed anuses, implying that this is what happens when you have anal sex... 

Emmanuel: …and telling me, don't be gay. No child of mine is gonna be gay. I hope you're not. 

Host: So that’s why Emmanuel thinks he can't count on his family to get him out of this kind of trouble. 

Emmanuel: So me, I panicked immediately. I grabbed my phone, so that I can just run away. 

Ngofeen: And why didn't you wanna leave it behind? 

Emmanuel: Of course, they're my photos. There's like evidence and they could find me easily with my phone. 

Ngofeen: Uhhuh 

Emmanuel: I was so fast I couldn't tell it was me. But the body is in survival mode, so you're running and running and you're not even thinking about getting tired. 

Host: So he's running for his life, surprised at his own speed. But he's in a neighborhood he doesn't know well. He runs onto someone's property, and hides. 

Emmanuel: It's like outside toilet, not inside the house. I wanted somewhere to hide because the guy was running right behind me. 

Host: The guy comes through the gate and onto the property and says to the people living in the house there, there's someone in your outhouse.... 

Emmanuel: …and that person is a thief. He told them I was a thief who had stolen something from him. So I knew if I stayed in there, they were going to catch me. So I just got out and started running again as soon as I started running again. Now, since there were very many voices, they started, uh, making, you know, noise. And before I knew it, there were like a lot of people chasing after me. Catch him, catch him, catch him, catch him, catch him, you know. They caught me. So as soon as they caught me, uh, he told them I had stolen a phone. 

Ngofeen: Mm-hmm. 

Emmanuel: So, I told the people immediately, this is my phone. I haven't stolen anything. He's the one trying to steal my phone. I can even put the password. Can you ask him to put the password in the phone? So immediately, as soon as he realized that wasn't working, he had to tell them, oh, this is a gay guy, and I'm police, and I'm trying to catch him. And in Uganda, as soon as you mention gay, nobody's gonna listen to you. Everyone is gonna turn against you. 

So even the people that were a little bit on my side turned against me immediately. I saw people get angry. They changed looking at me like, okay, now this one should be killed. So I knew, I knew it was over for me. I had also given up because at this point they were like tens of people around me, slapping me, kicking me, and it was getting worse by minute 

Host: The guy from Grindr? He's still there. 

Emmanuel: He, he kept on, you know, saying this is a gay guy.Uh, he raped some boy up there, up the hill. We are taking him. All lies. 

Ngofeen: Uhhuh. When you say it was over for me, what does that mean? 

Emmanuel: Over. I mean, like I was going to get killed. It has happened before. There have been some reports in Uganda where people, um, beaten and killed as soon as people know they're gay. So, I knew that was what was going to happen to me. Fortunately, police, uh, arrived that was working with the guy. 

Host: So the mob was about to kill him. But then the police that are working with the guy from Grindr suddenly showed up.  

Emmanuel: There was a policeman in a uniform, full uniform, Ugandan police uniform. Then they put me in, in handcuffs, then put me in the car. I was thankful that the police came at that moment. 

Ngofeen: Yeah. Yeah. 

Emmanuel: ‘Cause if they didn't come, I would have, you know, maybe died. But still, these were also enemies. 

Host: When we come back, we’ll hear what those enemies did to him... 

[Belkis Ad] 

Host: Emmanuel had been rescued from a mob that was on the verge of killing him, and now he was handcuffed in a police car with the person from Grindr who said he is working for the police, and some uniformed police officers. 

Emmanuel: So as we were driving to the police station and these people keep asking me, why are you gay? Why should you be gay? Uh, what, what, what? So so just to get out of the situation, I told them, oh, I'm doing this because of money. I want money. I told them, I'm a student and I'm just, you know, looking for a little money survive at campus. 

 They kept on saying those, you know, like bad words, harsh words to me, you know, a few slaps here and there as we are going. So when we reached the police station, they don't take me out of the car. So they told me, you know, it's illegal in Uganda to be gay and you're going to to go to police, and once you go to police, you are never gonna come out. 

So they were like, since you're a student, we forgive you, but you have to give us something. I don't have money. ‘No, no, no, no. You gay people have money. What, what, what, what?’ So I called a friend of mine. He’s gay too, so I had to tell him straight up, I had gone to meet a hookup and it turns out he's police and I'm arrested, and so before I could finish the story they grabbed my phone and started talking to him and asked him, like, for a million Ugandan shillings. He said he can't afford that. So we had to, you know, negotiate with them. We negotiated and told them we could give them 500 K. 

Host: Five hundred thousand Ugandan shillings. That’s about $140 U.S. dollars. 118 Euros. 

Emmanuel: So, you know, after the back and forth they accepted, my friend sent the money on my phone. We drove from the police station and went to a mobile money agent, withdrew the money from my phone and handed them the cash. Then they let me go. I feel lucky that I survived. Lucky. Yeah. It was a horrible experience. 

Oryem: One of the things about his story that is really sad to me is how, people who are supposed to protect you, in this case, police. Are the ones who are involved in harming you. 

Host: This is Oryem Nyeko. 

Ngofeen: Um, Oryem, what do you do? Who are you, what do you do? 

Oryem: So I'm a researcher at Human Rights Watch. I cover Uganda. And I've spent the last two and a half years, doing research about the impact, not only of the Anti-Homosexuality Act, but about the sort of broader anti LGBT climate in Uganda. 

Host: Oryem was the lead researcher and the author of a recent report for Human Rights Watch called "They're Putting Our Lives at Risk: How Uganda's Anti-LGBT Climate Unleashes Abuse." Oryem listened in to my conversation with Emmanuel and we debriefed after. 

Ngofeen: When you hear the conversation, we just had. What comes to mind for you? Like, how does this fit into a bigger picture? 

Oryem: Emmanuel, he's an example of many people whose lives have been impacted dramatically by what's been going on in the last two years. It's not the law specifically, um, the anti Homosexuality Act that has made life really difficult. But it's the climate around when it was being passed, so when this law was introduced in Parliament in around March of 2023 ... 

Host: ...the same month that Emmanuel went through his ordeal.... 

Oryem: ... at that time there was a lot of anti LGBT rhetoric and discussions that were happening in the media in Uganda, and I think that many Ugandans believed those things. And you know, the consequence of that is that it's made, as I said, life really difficult for many people, not just gay people, but their family members, their supporters, their allies. Um, it's very difficult to talk about homosexuality in Uganda right now. 

Host: Difficult and possibly illegal. Remember that the new law vaguely says that you can be punished for the “promotion” of homosexuality. Oryem says that LGBT rights organizations have been physically attacked and shut down across the country. And starting about two years before the law passed the media had begun to hammer away on the topic... 

Oryem: progressively there started to be a lot of stories in the news, about homosexuality and a lot of, speeches by high profile political figures talking about how homosexuality is a foreign thing and how uh, young people in our communities are being recruited into homosexuality and how something needs to be done to change that. And at the time it seemed very strange and out of place. I say this because I'm Ugandan and I spend a lot of time there. Um, I'm familiar with what the issues are there and what people are talking about, and it just didn't feel very organic or like, uh, didn't feel like most people were worried about gay people in Uganda at that time as a priority issue. And yet this was the main story in the news for a very long time. But it turned out that that was sort of a precursor to the introduction of the anti homosexuality bill in Parliament. 

Host: Here's a little political context. The current president of Uganda, Yoweri Musevini, has been in power since... 1986. He’s been president longer than I’ve been alive! Musevini is now 80 years old, and he recently announced his intention of running for office again, in 2025. We're not going to get into how Musevini has held onto power for that long--that's a whole another podcast!--but let's just say that the Anti-Homosexuality Bill he signed into law has received overwhelming public support. As you’ve heard, anti-gay feeling runs very high in Uganda, as it does in many African countries. But that, too, needs some context... 

Oryem: anti LGBT laws. They didn't just come about out of the sky in many African countries. In Uganda, the penal code provisions that prohibit same sex acts, which have been enforced since like 1950s. It was passed by the British colonial government. And so what happened in 2023, and 2014, is that the government now has added onto this anti LGBT stance. 

Host: Many in Uganda. elsewhere in Africa and really, throughout the world–Russia, for example–say homosexuality is a Western import. I’ve heard this first-hand. “Don’t bring us that western thing. This is not part of our culture.” Conversely, you hear many people say that extreme homophobia comes from the West... Particularly from Western Christian missionaries. 

Oryem: There were a lot of people who were very interested in interrogating how especially American evangelists were involved or possibly involved in the support for this law. And a lot of people talking about how, possibly how, Ugandan legislators were pushed to introduce it by foreigners, Americans who are telling them that we need this law to be in place. But my problem with that is we are taking agency away from Ugandans, and also culpability, responsibility because at the end of the day, it's Ugandan parliamentarians who introduced this law into parliament. It's Ugandan parliamentarians who debated it, and it's ultimately Ugandan parliamentarians who threw other Ugandans under the bus and made it possible that people like Emmanuel who are just living their lives can face really horrible consequences because we have this terrible law in place. If we want to address homophobia and make a more equal society, without discrimination, without harm, without hate, then we have to tackle it from the inside. I feel like it's a distraction to focus on external actors, and that's not going to resolve the issue for us ultimately. 

Ngofeen: Then, I guess, can you just tell me a little bit about the future, as in, what's like the hope or the recommendation. 

Oryem: I mean, so basically the basic call is to, for the government to repeal the Anti Homosexuality Act and you know, put in place like mechanism that promotes non-discrimination. But to do that, I think what we really want to do is to spread the message and to, you know, promote this idea that gay people, it's an obvious statement to make, but they're human beings and, they're Ugandans, they're not aliens. They're ordinary people whose lives are being impacted by this law in really negative ways. 

Ngofeen: After that whole situation, the entire ordeal, how did your life change? 

Emmanuel: It changed a lot, um, because now I, I don't use like any app whatsoever. 

Ngofeen: Mm-hmm. 

Emmanuel: I don't meet new people at all. 

Ngofeen: Mm-hmm. 

Emmanuel: You know, like I had my piercings, ear piercings. I don't wear those anymore, so I try to fit in as much as I can. 

Host: I don't know if you can tell this by listening, but when I hear Emmanuel, I hear him being very sort of like, it seems like he’s being very quiet and hesitant talking about these things. And after his ordeal, it makes perfect sense. Emmanuel has retreated deep inside the closet. His family still doesn't know he's gay, and he lives his life in fear of discovery, of being outed. So, with the Anti-Homosexuality Act, 2023 now the law of the land, and with pro-LGBTQ organizations suppressed by the government, and even talking about homosexuality in a non-negative way might get you arrested for "promoting" homosexuality, what do you do? What can you do? And who can do it? 

[Mama Arthur Clip, fade under] 

Host: This is the mother of Arthur, or Mama Arthur. Arthur is the oldest of her five children and identifies as non-binary. Arthur was kicked out of the house by the father, who blames Mama Arthur for having given birth to what he thought was a defective child and brought shame into the family. She’s saying that the message she would give to parents with queer children is to befriend them and not distance them, as they are also normal. 

Oryem: there's a group of mothers who, who have, you know, spent time advocating, uh, against this law. 

[Mama Joshua Clip] 

Host: Mama Joshua is the mother of three. Joshua is very feminine and sometimes dresses like a woman. Before the law was passed and it was being debated in Parliament, and in the press, they left their home to get away from neighbors who were threatening them. She’s saying that she chose to become part of an advocacy group called Parents and Families of Lesbians and Gays because she has a queer child and she wants to fight for the freedom of queer children… 

[Mama Dennis Clip] 

Host: This is Mama Dennis, who says this journey or issue has not been easy at all. It has been hard for her. 

[Mama Hajjatti clip] 

Host: And Mama Hajjatti, who says: When my child was growing up he was like a girl and carried himself like one as well, and acted like one, though I didn't care about it much. 

Oryem: This is really significant because in Ugandan society, mothers are, are really regarded very highly and their, their voices are meant to be listened to. 

Host: After parliament approved the Anti Homosexuality Act, 2023, but before the president signed it, a group of Ugandan mothers of gay and trans children wrote a famous letter to Museveni. 

It says, and I quote, “We have always loved our children, and this did not change when we learned that they are Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender and Intersex respectively. Religious fundamentalists continue to condemn our children as outcasts and criminals who are destined for imprisonment through the mainstream and social media. It has been horrific to watch this form of hate speech against our children.” 

Mama Rihanna Clip:  

Host: This is Mama Rihanna, the mother of a trans woman. She says, What made me decide to be one of the petitioners in the case regarding the AHA law was that I felt I had to stand in and be there in support of my child and others so that they can receive equality and freedom in their country. Also, that the government can extend grace, mercy and kindness to the queers which would bring happiness to us as parents. 

Museveni signed the bill anyway, but Oryem sees in their actions a reason for hope... 

Oryem: I think it's really significant because, um, it just shows that, again, to my point, that this law is affecting everyone. And there are many people who, uh, who are not happy with it. And we need, I think the discourse around it needs to be more nuanced and involve as many people as possible. 

OUTRO 

Host: You can read a lot more about this on Human Rights Watch’s website, hrw.org, where you can find the report "They're Putting Our Lives at Risk: How Uganda's Anti-LGBT Climate Unleashes Abuse." 

The archival clips in this episode are from NBS TV, Deutsche Welle, and WION. The street sounds of Kampala come from a user who goes by allantusiime on the website Pixabay. 

You’ve been listening to Rights & Wrongs from Human Rights Watch. This episode was produced by me and Curtis Fox. Sophie Soloway is the associate producer. Ifé Fatunase and Stacy Sullivan are the executive producers. Thanks also to Anthony Gale.  

I’m Ngofeen Mputubwele. We’ll be back in September with new episodes. Thanks for listening!