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Appendix II: Interview with Kardze Court Judge, December 6, 2002

Editor’s note: The document is a transcript of an interview by a Radio Free Asia (RFA) reporter with one of the judges in the Kardze Tibetan Autonomous Region who sentenced Tenzin Delek Rinpoche and his alleged co-conspirator, Lobsang Dondrup. The tape was made four days after Tenzin Delek received a death sentence suspended for two years, and Lobsang Dondrup was sentenced to death. In the tape the judge presents the government’s case and discusses the various bombings for which the men were held responsible and the differences in the roles they reportedly played in the alleged conspiracy. The RFA interviewer’s remarks are in italics; the judge’s are in regular typeface.


Hello?

How are you?

I’m well.

I'm from Radio Free Asia.

Yes?

And, I would like to ask you something. It’s something about which you are involved.

Yes, who did you say you are?

I’m from Radio Free Asia.

Yes, yes.

According to news reports, you know, Lithang Tulku A-ngag Tashi [Tenzin Delek] and Lobsang Dondrup have been given death sentences on charges of causing bomb blasts I would like to request you to speak about this matter.

Oh, you are talking about A-ngag Tashi?

Yes, A-ngag Tashi.

Yes.

A-ngag Tashi and Lobsang Dondrup, the two of them.

Yes, yes, yes.

We have come to learn that you are among those who passed the judicial sentence in respect of these two. I would like to request you to kindly explain to me accurately and in detail the crimes that have been found guilty of.

Now, it is like this.

Yes.

You mean A-ngag Tashi?

Yes, A-ngag Tashi.

Well, it concerns A-ngag Tashi and Lobsang Dondrup. A-ngag Tashi is actually from——his birthplace is Lithang.

I see.

He is from Lithang. That being the case…and Lobsang Dondrup is from “Yahjong Sa” [Yajiang] in Nyagchukha.

I see.

As for A-ngag Tashi, if you ask, he is now aged 52.

I see.

And as for Lobsang Dondrup, he is now 28. Now, if one asks “What are the main issues concerning these two guys?” now, hmmm, when was it? nineteen hmmm, ninety eight.

Yes.

Now, until recently…from then until about April this year…you know.

Yes.

Up to this time, two bombs had been exploded at the residence of our Lithang Kyabgon Rinpoche.

What? Did you say that bombs were exploded at the residence of Kyabgon Rinpoche?

Yes, bombs were exploded. And, three bombs were exploded in Dartsedo.

Dartsedo? Whereabouts in Dartsedo were the bombs exploded?

One was exploded within the town, on a bridge.

And?

And one was exploded at the gates of Prefectural Government Offices.

At the gates of the Prefectural offices?

Yes, at the gates of Prefectural offices.

And?

Then one was exploded down there at the Transport Office [in Tibetan].

The Jiaotong Qu [Chinese for Transportation Office]?

The Transport Office.

Oh, Transport Office.

Yes, the bomb exploded outside the building killing an elderly gatekeeper.

Was the old man Chinese or Tibetan?

Well, he was the gatekeeper.

Okay, okay. So, he was the gatekeeper. And?

Yes, the gatekeeper.

And?

Lobsang Dondrup had arrived, from wherever he had come, to explode the bomb. And they say that A-ngag Tashi paid for all the expenses.

Oh, I see.

And then, this year, during the month of April, a bomb was exploded at the Tianfu Plaza in Chengdu.

And?

First of all, he had come there once to reconnoiter the area.

I see.

What we learned later is that A-ngag Tashi had done a mo [divination] to determine the best time and decided that Tuesday was the most auspicious.

Okay, so you mean that A-ngag Tashi had done the mo and found out that if the bomb was detonated on Tuesday, it portended success. Is that what is being said?

Yes, they say there were many people at the square and so the bomb couldn't be exploded on that day. The next day, in the afternoon around 11 a.m. or when it was almost 12 p.m. midday, the bomb was exploded. About twelve people were injured. And they had managed to arrest Lobsang Dondrup there.

What, was he arrested right there at the Square?

Yes, after exploding the bomb at the Square, he was arrested there, it seems.

Oh, I see.

So, after that, when the truth started emerging, A-ngag Tashi was said to be his backer.

So, A-ngag Tashi was his backer, and

Yes, yes.

And he [Lobsang Dondrup] himself was the person who I see, I see. And now the bomb explosion in Dartsedo. How did that happen?

Outside the gates of the Prefectural offices, two people were injured. One was badly injured. The other was hit by flying debris.

Oh no!

The whole structure was destroyed. Within the compound of the Prefectural offices were many vehicles parked. All their windows were shattered.

I see, I see. However, what many people outside [China] say is that the fact that Lama A-ngag Tashi had returned from India, is one reason why the Chinese government was not pleased with [him]. Secondly, he is seen as someone who is totally committed to the task of preserving and promoting the religious and cultural traditions of Tibet. And, as he was a lama who harboured tremendous love and solidarity with the people of Tibet, the Chinese Government had, out of disdain for him, framed him on these bombing charges. Otherwise, they all say that it impossible for someone like him to be involved in any such activities.

Oh, now that is…that is you know…one version of some people, isn’t it?

Yes.

Our judicial sentence that was completed, where everything was…now then…right from the start concerning his movements, whereabouts, activities—everything—they have acknowledged by putting their fingerprints.

When they had put their fingerprints, wasn't it done under force such as beatings?

As for that, apart from some minor reprimand while inside…now basically, all discussions relating to the explosion of the bombs, all six of them,…only Lobsang Dondrup and he were found to be the key people involved in the discussions. There weren’t any other people to be named.

I see. According to what we hear, A-ngag Tashi, who is also referred to as Tenzin Delek Rinpoche by others,so firstly, A-ngag Tashi happens to be someone who has come from India, and secondly the general members of the public from areas such as Lithang, Nyagchu, and Minyak, Rangakha and so on, have and show tremendous faith in him and venerate himAnd likewise, he's been seen to be extremely attached and committed to the well-being of the Tibetan people. So, because of such considerations, the Nyagchu police, likewise members of the Lithang police, and certain [central] Chinese political leaders had developed a dislike for him, were waiting for an opportune moment to compromise him and lay charges against him. Therefore, when the incident of a couple of bomb blasts occurred in the Lithang area, they found it convenient to frame the 'lama’ by falsely alleging him to be the culprit responsible for those bomb explosions, even though he was innocent. This is what we have heard. Isn't that so?

That isn’t the case.

I see.

He’d himself claimed that he was a lama; you know, he meant he was a lama recognized by the Dalai Lama.

I see, I see. So, he must be one of the lamas recognized by the Dalai Lama?

Yes, he was himself claiming that he was a lama recognized by the Dalai Lama.

Ah, so he had made this claim?

Yes, this is what he had claimed himself.

Okay.

We didn’t see any kind of letter that supports such claims.

Okay, Okay, does this mean that he had himself made the claim orally that he was recognized by the Dalai Lama but had no documents or papers and so on, to prove that he had been recognized by the Dalai Lama?

No, I don’t think so. Already, there had been some six different bomb explosions, you know.

I see.

And, he has acknowledged knowing about five of those incidents. Yes, he had acknowledged [them] and everything was sorted out. He said that he had no knowledge about one incident.

I see, and he—

Whenever there was a bombing incident, he was saying that he wanted independence for Tibet. He had sent many letters [or leaflets] to the prefectural offices.

What, did you mean that the lama had been sending leaflets demanding independence for Tibet?

All the leaflets were hand-written and taken to the bomb-explosion sites.

Oh, I see, I see. So, in those leaflets he must have made demands for Tibetan independence?

Yes, he’s been saying that Tibet must be independent. He had written the original leaflets and Losang, ehh…what’s he called? Lobsang Dondrup…was made to copy out the writings accurately. When the copying was done, all the original documents were put to the fire.

I see.

All these have been acknowledged by him.

Okay, Okay. Now, as for the bombing at the residence of Lithang Kyabgon Rinpoche, I doubt if he was involved? And, in case, if it was him, then how should one interpret this action?

Well, to find out the cause, his position is that he is not against the State—

Yes.

But rather that mainly he had a dislike for Kyabgon Rinpoche.

I see, I see now. So, then what could be the possible reasons for the lama to dislike Kyabgon Rinpoche like that?

His position is that despite all the good work that he has been doing for the public, the State [Government] doesn’t acknowledge his contributions. And on the other hand, although Kyabgon Rinpoche doesn't do anything [for the public], the State still gives him great backing, which he says is very unfair. He is saying that is unfair.

I see, I see. Nevertheless, we are informed that Lama Tenzin Delek Rinpoche has been advising the people in the area not to steal, not to drink alcohol such as “chang” [beer] or other kinds of alcohol, and to respect and abide by the constitution of the country, and so on. And likewise, he has been active in building schools, care homes for the elderly and destitute people, and so on in the local areas, and other such activities which are beneficial to the state government as well as the local people. Now, are these statements about his activities true?

That, of course, he has done.

Okay, then when you recently passed the death sentence on a Lama like him, then, on the part of the people, the general public, what kind of opinion or reactions are there on the issue of whether or not such a sentence is fair?

Oh, the people, you know, as far as we know, hmmm…they have expressed their shock.

Oh, how strange! Normally, the local people venerate Lama Tenzin Delek Rinpoche—A-ngag Tashi as your side call him—A-ngag Tashi, who is normally venerated and defied as highly as His Holiness the Dalai Lama, now in this case, I wonder why the people expressed their sense of shock saying, “Akha kha” [“It’s stunning, shocking”]?

That is because they say that in front of them he was a perfectly decent lama. Now that he had been doing such things behind our backs, we have all been duped.

Oh, I see.

Yes, his relatives and members of family, all came to accept the reality.

I see.

That being the case—

And he is, in actual fact a lama who had returned from India, isn’t he?

Yes, yes.

So, that being the case, what in your opinion is the attitude towards him on the part of the Local Government—say the police or the local government authorities?

Now, when he had first arrived, their attitude towards him was neither good nor bad.

I see.

Now, he was involved in religious—

Why do you think he had a good impression?

Yes, when he first came, you know, he is from Lithang monastery.

Oh, yes.

So, he’s a monk of Lithang monastery. Then, as for Lithang monastery, before he went abroad,…he had been abroad for about six years.

Yes, yes.

Yes, before he went abroad, while in Lithang, because of stealing, fighting, drinking alcohol, etc., the monastery had expelled him.

And?

So, after coming back [from abroad], ehh…and you know the deity, Gyalchen Shugden199 at Lithang monastery?

Yes, yes.

So, he told them that the Dalai Lama had announced that the deity Gyalchen Shugden is of no benefit to Tibet, and so, it should be given up and destroyed.

Yes, yes. I understand. So, he has been telling them that Gyalchen Shugden should not be propitiated, because it's the advice of the Dalai Lama, as it's a deity that is of no benefit to the Tibetan people, and as such, its [images] should be destroyed. Was this the sort of thing he had been telling them? Am I right?

Oh, yes, yes, that’s the sort of thing he’s been saying. But Lithang monastery wouldn’t have any of it.

So, that means, Lithang monastery had refused to agree to this suggestion.

Right, they wouldn’t.

And then?

And then, he started making a hue and cry about it saying that he was [a lama] recognized by the Dalai Lama, and there are two townships between Lithang and Nyagchukha.

Yes, and?

And there he had a few relatives. So, he announced that he was recognized by the Dalai Lama. Now, if someone says that he is recognized by the Dalai Lama, then they really put their trust in him. Yes, they really do.

Yes, indeed.

So, in this way, they started taking the people for a ride, building a school, and feeding and looking after some elderly folks.

And then?

And then, in this way, he came to gain a reputation as a proper lama—and he professed to be someone who didn’t desire either material wealth or power.

Oh, I see.

And in this way, they brought him to Nyagchukha.

Okay, Okay. So, when he first went to Lithang monastery, they were propitiating the deity Gyalchen Shugden, and he told them not to propitiate it because it is the advice of the Dalai Lama. And when he suggested that it [Gyalchen's images] should be destroyed, Lithang monastery refused to cooperate. So, their relations broke down and he had to come to Nyagchukha. Is that the case?

Yes, indeed.

What’s the name of the Nyagchukha monastery?

It’s not really a monastery. It’s just one of their colleges.

A college?

It’s called Uthang College?

What college?

Uthang College.

Uthang College?

Yes, Uthang College, these days it’s called Tsang Zhi Gonpa. Now, Tsang Zhi Gonpa has been built. Formerly, there didn’t used to be any monastery there. There only used to be some kind of tent, within some enclosure.

And?

Now, the present monastery has been built.

How many monks are there in that monastery, these days?

At present, it looks like there are over 200 monks.

Oh, my! It must be a large monastery.

This monastery is…ehhh…yes, it’s become fairly large now.

Yes, now we should call it large these days, though in the past, before the country of Tibet was lost, there used to be many large monasteries in the Kham region, you know. There were monasteries like Gonchen Namthong or Tawu Nyitsho Gon or Jedang Zorgu and others like those. Now, there are no longer such large monasteries, as you know. So, now for a monastery with some 200 to 300 monks, we should be calling them large, shouldn't we?

Indeed, that’s true.

Now, that being the case, is he the highest tulku of this particular monastery?

Now, tulku or whatever, he is not [officially] recognized by the state.

Not recognized by the state?

Yes, when the state doesn’t grant recognition, there’s no way he can get in. Hence, for nearly three or four years he has not lived in that monastery.

I see, and where have they been going then?

Down there toward…the town of Nyagchukha, at a higher place, a distance of about half a kilometer only, there is a monastery called Jamyang Gonpa.

Is it above the [Yajiang] township within Nyagchukha?

Hmm, it’s above the township; it’s not really far—

I see.

Yes, it’s part of the township.

I see, it’s then—

Yes, there’s a monastery called Jamyang Gonpa.

And?

He used to stay there.

How many monks were there?

There, ehh…the number of monks is, slightly over twenty. There aren’t that many.

Now, there, they have built up a lot of structures.

And?

He’s said to have built rooms into the mountainside, what we would call “Vis” [cellars]. He’s built a lot of things, I tell you.

Okay, Okay. So, you're saying that he had built houses in Jamyang monastery, and within his houses, he had dug underground cellars, and he is been making bombs in the cellar?

Yes, he had dug out a cellar in which what we call “Vis” in Chinese.

Oh,“Vis”?

Yes, “Vis.” In that, they say they had brought many kinds of videos and stuff from America and made all kinds of things. [sneering]

Is there material evidence for such things?

There is, the police knew and came to me, you know.

Okay, Okay. So the police brought the evidence to you, to you at the Banyan [Court].

The police had got it.

And?

And they made…And in those videos they had many different girls, and dance and a variety of things, they say. [sneering]

What? What kind of girlie things did they say there were?

Yes, women’s, women’s videos and stuff like that.

Oh, I see.

Yes, and besides, believe me friend, they told me there were pills and all kinds of things.

Now, couldn’t it be that in this case, a lama, who has been arrested by the Chinese government, these kind of things could have been filmed afterwards. And on the lama’s side, there are no witnesses, and so the Police could make whatever they wish to make to frame him, in my opinion. So, when they claim to have evidence, can it be true?

It’s true. There’s no doubt about it. And Yanjiang township has been suggesting that a video film ought to be made and used to advise and educate the people. Our lama, who we believed to be faultless, is all the more depraved. [with a sneer] All this has already been turned into a video film.

What? A video has been made already? Who had produced the video?

It’s the police.

Yajiang police?

Yes. The lama is supposed to be faultless but the lama has been doing all sorts of things. [sneering]

What kind of devotion or faith do the Tibetan people in that District or should I say, area, normally have in him?

Now, the district,…the majority of the people do adore him, I can tell you.

In Nyagchukha?

They have faith in him.

In Nyagchukha?

Yes, but these days, his reputation has become so bad already that the people cannot open their mouths. Considerable “dirt” has been found.

In Nyagchukha, broadly speaking, what is the population?

There are, about, 40,000 people.

About 40,000?

Yes. A large majority do have deep faith in him. But these days, the people of Nyagchukha don't dare raise their heads in his support.

Okay, then according to what you have just said, about 40,000 people in the county you mentioned have great faith in him.

Indeed.

So, now that he has been given the death sentence, haven’t there been some sort of representations to the Chinese Government or demonstrations on his behalf?

No, there haven’t been. Now, it’s become all quiet among the people.

So, you mean there has been no one to appeal against the sentence?

What?

Hasn’t there been anyone so far to appeal the case, saying that it is not fair.

Initially, there were some plans for that. But then gradually, everyone got to know the facts and came to accept it.

What was the initial plan?

The initial plan was…Lobsang Dondrup himself had come. And then they say

A-ngag Tashi had come.

Is there anyone from among the people who says that he is a genuine and faultless lama, and it is not fair to give him the death sentence, and therefore, objects to the decision?

There aren’t any like that at present.

Is it all quiet then?

Yes, it is all quiet.

I see.

Formerly, people used to say A-ngag Tashi is great. The people used to say…They really had a tremendous propaganda about him.

You mean, the people reacted like that when A-ngag Tashi was first arrested?

Yes. That was around the time, in 1997.

And?

Now, we now know everything. So, that’s what it is like, friend. Now—

And, on behalf of Tenzin Delek Rinpoche, has there been any member of his family who has appealed to say that it is an unfair sentence passed by the Chinese Government or has there been any judge, I mean any solicitor or advocate who has taken up the case and appealed?

Now, after we had passed the sentence, there is legal provision for them to appeal within about half a month of the court sentence, you know if they do not accept the verdict. So, we waited. I have been told that some people, apparently relatives of A-ngag Tashi had come to the court but had said that they didn’t have any comment to make.

Saying that they had nothing to complain about? I see. And how many of the relatives came that day?

The relatives who had come that day were, ehhh…the sentence was passed fairly long before that…that day four or five of them came.

Do you know who thoseeach of those individuals was?

That, I didn’t know.

Okay, Okay. About four of them?

Yes, their relatives had come together, after the sentence was passed. They had come to intercede on their behalf.

Now this court hearing and sentencing - was it done in secret attended only by a handful of people or was it an open hearing widely known, where many people had attended? How was the court sentencing carried out?

Now, at the court, there were some 200 to 300 people.

Was it carried out at the prefectural level?

Yes, it was done at the prefectural level.

Was it held in some large public arena where many people could attend or was it held in the court itself?

Yes, it was held in the court. Now, that is the way it is.

Thank you very much. That’s more or less what I wished to ask. Oh, yes, what you had told us—they are all absolutely true and not falsehoods?

What you mean? Why should I lie…If I lie…if I tell lies…there’s no benefit for me as you know.

Okay. And so, is it all right for me to report your statements in the news?

Erm…yes, you can report that in the news.

Okay, Okay.

Hey there.

Yes?

About their activities, we have circulated and publicized them in most of the monasteries in the Tibetan Autonomous areas.

You've been amazing in that respect!

Information and publicity has been circulated to everyone.

When did you do that?

We know all their activities now. Using their case as an example, we have advised all the monasteries.

I see, I see.

Yes, we’ve given advice.

Yes, yes.

So, now what the monasteries are saying is that he has violated the religious vows. They say that according to Tibetan Buddhist religion, even if one cannot do something beneficial, they have never heard of anyone encouraging violence by causing bomb explosions,

That means—

And, when we heard the case of A-ngag Tashi and Lobsang Dondrup, we thought that they might have some other accomplices. But as we heard their case to pass the verdict, they had no one else to name. One was A-ngag Tashi and one was Lobsang Dondrup. Hearing the case in detail, they say A-ngag Tashi is the mastermind behind everything. It’s said that Lobsang Dondrup was the front man wherever he had to go or whatever he had to do, and A-ngag Tashi provided all the money.

Where could have A-ngag Tashi got such money from?

He has money. I don’t know if he has formed some organization abroad. Besides, the local people have great faith in him.

Okay. And I’m sure that they still have faith in him.

Yes, the people do indeed have tremendous faith in him.

Okay, Okay. Is Lobsang Dondrup a soldier or something?

No, no, no. He’s just an ordinary member of the public.

An ordinary member of the public, and any chance of him being a monk?

A monk? They say he used to be a monk in the past. And he had…later reports suggest all sorts of things saying the two of them had close connections.

This guy called Losang Tashi [Dondrup]…what members of family does he have, these days?

What?

Which members of family does he have, at home?

At home there are many people.

I see, you mean Lobsang Tashi [Dondrup]?

Later, he had chosen to remain single, and rented a house in Nyagchukha, it’s said.

Lobsang Dondrup?

Yes. And they say he had “Usu Sejin” and “Lu su Sejin” type guns to carry, it’s said.

I see.

He is said to have weapons to carry, they say.

Oh, guns?

Yes, guns, he had. And to tell you the rest, when we were passing the verdict, the young man named Lobsang Dondrup was shouting when A-ngag Tashi was given two years suspended sentence. He was complaining that A-ngag Tashi was responsible for all the plans and yet he is given two years suspended sentence whereas I am given direct execution sentence. Why this to me? He was making noise like that. [hint of sneering]

Who was making such noise?

Lobsang Dondrup. [sneering]

So, when he was complaining and shouting, was there anyone from among the public who supported them?

No, there was none shouting from among the public.

He was shouting and trying to complain. What were his exact words?

No, he had nothing to say.

What was he trying to do?

What?

What was he trying to do?

Then, Lobsang—A-ngag Tashi said that he was prepared to face the death sentence. When the two years’ suspended sentence was announced, A-ngag Tashi said that he didn’t want the two years’ suspended sentence.

And then?

And then, A-ngag Tashi was shouting and making noises, and he was taken out.

I’m sure he was not allowed to shout?

No, he wouldn’t have been allowed. That is banned.

So, that means that A-ngag Tashi Rinpoche was saying, “You've not given me a fair verdict. So, I don't want this suspended sentence of two years. You can kill me right now.” Is that what he was doing?

Yes, yes. That’s what he was saying. He was saying, “I don’t want the two years suspension.”

However, there isn’t any chance of a change to the verdict passed?

What?

Is it possible for the sentence to be changed?

Change to the verdict? We cannot tell. Now, whether they agree or disagree with the verdict, within a year…no I mean, within fifteen days, they could appeal. In our Chinese language, we call it “Shang su.”

“Shang su,” yes, yes.

So, we have to wait for that.

I see. I see. And there are no members of their family to appeal on their behalf?

Er…who knows if they will do so later. I cannot tell.

So, if they want they have the right to do so then?

Yes, they could appeal.

Okay, Okay.

There’s time. They have been given time for that.

Yes, indeed.

So, it’s like that. Now, then—

I’m going to report your statements in the news. Okay.

Sure, sure.

Okay.

Yes.

Yamo.

Okay, goodbye now.

Yamo.

Okay. he he.



199 Shugden also known as Doegyal, a malevolent deity, originating from the time of the Fifth Dalai Lama, that the present Dalai Lama has proscribed from being worshipped due to its negative influence on the collective karma of Tibet.


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February 2004