December 11, 2008

II. First Contact with the Authorities

Typically, the first contact between unaccompanied children and the authorities involves the Hellenic police, port police, border guards or the coastguard.[33] Often this is in the context of official action against migrants who enter the country illegally. Unaccompanied children may be picked up by the coastguard from boats as they enter Greek waters. They may be found hiding within trucks entering Greece or leaving the country for other European Union (EU) member states. In other cases, children are arrested in sweeps against migrants. They may also be arrested during identity checks in Athens and other bigger cities.

When police pick up a young person certain procedures ought to kick into action. For one, if the migrant is undocumented and there are doubts about the person's age, an age assessment should be made to determine whether the person is a child and therefore entitled to certain protection measures. If so, competent child protection services should be called in. Authorities should also assess whether the child is unaccompanied and, in such a case, ensure representation by a guardian without delay. All unaccompanied children should be registered, tracked, and records need to be continuously updated. As described above, the law provides that children who are victims of abuse, neglect, exploitation, torture, cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment, or armed conflict should receive appropriate rehabilitation services and mental health care if needed. All these identification procedures require specialized staff working closely with law enforcement bodies. Furthermore, children should be informed about their right to seek asylum and interviewed about the possible existence of international protection needs right after their apprehension.  

The reality is woeful. Not a single child interviewed by Human Rights Watch had a proper interview after his or her arrival. Children said that only basic data was recorded following their entry into Greek territory, such as their name, their father's name, their country of origin and their age. Translation, if available at all, was arranged ad hoc, by fellow migrants rather than police interpreters.

There are no official procedures for assessing children's ages. Police officers who register children's identities sometimes record their ages as older than that given by the children. At other times they do not question children who claim to be adults. Police do not register children as unaccompanied and they fail to identify and refer children who have been traumatized or trafficked to specialized services.

While police in border areas do generally inform prosecutors-the child's temporary guardian-that a child migrant has been detained, prosecutors subsequently fail to safeguard the child's interests or keep track of a child as he or she moves through different parts of the immigration system.

Assessing Age

The authorities have not defined any official procedures for age determination. A presidential decree adopted in mid-July 2008 provides for the possibility of a medical exam to determine a person's age. It remains silent, however, on the type of medical or other examination and provides no instruction on how to take into account the margin of error medical examinations are prone to.[34] The decree requires that a person who claims to be a child be treated as such until the completion of the medical examination.[35]

Medical examinations used to determine the age of presumed children are subject to margins of error of up to five years.[36] Pediatricians have further criticized the fact that some exams expose children to X-ray for non-medical purposes.[37] The Committee on the Rights of the Child and UNHCR have both asked states not to base age assessments solely on the physical appearance of a child, but to also consider his or her psychological maturity, to take into account the margin of error that medical exams are subject to, and to give the child the benefit of doubt.[38]

In fact, few of the children Human Rights Watch spoke to had undergone a medical age examination for the purpose of age determination. Police officers either register age based on a person's declaration, or independently make what can only be described as an arbitrary assessment. When Human Rights Watch asked a senior police officer whether they followed any procedure when determining a person's age, he told us, "The only thing we can do is to look at the child to determine the age."[39] As a result children are often registered as older and sometimes younger than their real ages.[40]

Hayatullah R., who Human Rights Watch met shortly after he was released from the detention center in Mitilini, Lesvos Island, reported,

I said I was 12 but they wrote 15. I saw how he wrote 15. I told them I was 12, but they didn't say anything.[41]

Fahim F., who was apprehended by police in early 2008 on Lesvos Island, said,

I'm 17 years old. Here I'm 14 years old.… The police asked me how old I was but I couldn't understand their question so they wrote themselves 14. I didn't say I was 14.[42]

Sixteen-year-old Sobir S. told us that the police on Lesvos Island did not take into account his identification document during registration:

I had an ID but the police didn't consider it. When I got the deportation order my age was written as 18, but I told them I was Afghan and showed them my ID from Afghanistan where my birthday is written in Arabic numbers and according to the Afghan calendar. There was no interpreter. They also misspelled my name.[43]

Sixteen-year-old Hamed P. was registered as 21 years old without being asked any questions about his age. That age was subsequently transferred into his red card identifying him as an asylum seeker. Because he looks underage, he now finds himself blamed by police for the citing the wrong age: "Sometimes when I show my red card to the police they accuse me for not having said the truth that I am underage."[44]

Children are often illiterate and not necessarily aware what age they were registered at. Sixteen-year-old Raz G. for example did not know that his deportation order said he was 26 years old.[45]

Multiple age assessments

The registration of a child's age following his or her entry into the country is not the only time a child may undergo an age assessment.An unaccompanied child who has not filed an asylum application remains without documentation. If arrested a second time, or if the child makes an asylum application, he or she might face another age assessment and may be registered as a different age.[46] 

Sixteen-year-old Najib M. told us how his age was altered during a subsequent arrest: "I was arrested in the port and spent one night in the port police station, then four nights in Athens. On my first paper my age was 16. When I was arrested in Patras they made my age 18 and took the first paper away."[47] Similarly, Sami F. told us, "In Mitilini I was 17. Here they put 19 on the red card.[48] The police looked at me and said 'you are not 17, you are two years older.' I didn't say anything."[49]

Children who claim to be adults

Children may declare themselves and be registered as adults even if it is beyond any doubt that they are underage. Stating the opposite, the chief of police in Samos assured us that such registrations would not occur: "In some cases children are small and they declare to be older to be released earlier. We don't accept that."[50] Yet, 14-year-old Hussein S. declared himself as an adult to Samos police and was registered as 18 years old, even though he looked very immature and there was no doubt that he was underage.[51]

Some children are of the view that a higher age works to their advantage. Sixteen-year-old Hamed P., who was registered as a 21-year-old told us, "My friend told me it's better to be 21 because I could get a work permit because nobody will help me here. I work every day now in a beer factory. First the owner said I was underage. When I showed him my red card he said 'ok, you can start working.'"[52]

The lack of any formal age assessment procedures also means that there is no legal way to challenge and rectify an arbitrary or wrong assessment. Although a social worker told us that a child could change the age if a doctor certified that he or she was underage, this does not seem to be an official procedure or one that is known to practitioners.

When Hussein S. applied for asylum he was told by his lawyer there was no way to change his age: "when I applied for asylum they took the same age. I told the lawyer that I was 14 but the lawyer told me that now it was too late and that the police would not believe me."[53] Similarly, Musa M., who arrived at the age of 16 and was registered as 18 years old, told us: "I told them how old I am. I also went to the Greek Council of Refugees (GCR) and said that they registered me at an older age but GCR told me it was not possible to change. I told the police my date of birth but I don't know how it was translated."[54]

The Case of Leros Island

Authorities used medical tests to determine the age of a group of migrants, including a large number of unaccompanied children, who arrived on Leros Island between March and May 2008. The Greek Council of Refugees (GCR) interviewed all of them and concluded that out of 118 migrants, 32 were below age 17, and an unknown number were around 17 or 18 years old.[55] Although GCR made its age assessment available, authorities nevertheless ordered X-rays of the wrist bones of an unknown number of persons.[56] Following medical examinations and the departure of an unknown number of children, 22 children were transferred to care centers.[57] 

The head of the Aliens' Division within the Hellenic Police told Human Rights Watch that authorities intend to carry out age assessments more systematically throughout the country.[58] Yet he did not specify that a plan was in place or when such exams would be carried out. Moreover, when Human Rights Watch spoke to the Ministry of Health it was unaware of such plans.

Guardianship 

The Committee on the Rights of the Child specifies that states are required to secure proper representation of an unaccompanied child's best interests. This requirement derives from the binding obligation that a child's best interest is to be a primary consideration in all actions affecting the child.[59] To this end, states should appoint a guardian or advisor as soon as an unaccompanied child is identified.[60]  The guardian should be consulted and informed about all actions taken with regard to the child.[61] The Committee on the Rights of the Child also asks that guardianship be reviewed[62] and it specifies that in case a child enters the asylum procedure he or she should, in addition, be given legal representation.[63]

Greek legislation and a Ministry of Interior circular provide that public prosecutors are tasked to act as temporary guardians for all unaccompanied children-migrants, refugees and asylum seekers.[64] The guardianship system for Greek children deprived of their family environment is slightly different in that public prosecutors do not act as temporary guardians.[65]

Greek law stipulates that a child is to be represented by a guardian when neither parent exercises care, or when the child is unaccompanied and not taken into substantial care by an adult responsible for the child by law or custom.[66] The guardian's duty includes an obligation to take care of the child, to represent the child in any legal or judicial proceeding, to hear the child prior to any decision-making, and to act in the child's best interests. The obligation of care is the same for a guardian as for a parent and includes the child's upbringing, education, and housing.[67]

The law foresees that the exercise of guardianship is monitored by a supervisory council.[68] Guardians, courts, and the supervisory council are mandated to hear the child prior to any decision-making and to act in the child's best interests.[69] Guardianship can be removed if the court or supervisory council considers that a continuation puts the child in danger or is against the child's interests.[70] A guardian may refuse appointment or resign for "important reasons."[71]

While these provisions are generally in line with international standards, the authorities have not defined standard procedures that explain the mandate of temporary guardians with regard to third country unaccompanied children.[72] As a result, prosecutors, already under-resourced, have widely differing views of what their role entails.[73] They rarely undertake actions in the child's best interests, neither during the child's asylum procedure nor when the child is detained. Temporary guardians interviewed by Human Rights Watch did not know how many unaccompanied children they were responsible for and were not keeping track of children.[74] Some expressed skepticism about their mandate. In short, the guardianship system for unaccompanied children is dysfunctional.

The juvenile prosecutor in Athens, for example, told Human Rights Watch that her mandate was strictly limited to "signing the proposal for a permanent guardian" and that it was the responsibility of NGOs to find suitable guardians.[75] She explained that she did not have sufficient resources for this mandate, besides her other responsibilities for juvenile offenders and child victims of crimes.[76]

Both she and the deputy prosecutor in Orestiada were of the view that they could not act on behalf of a child in administrative detention. "It is very hard to say this, but legally these children don't exist. Because they are in an administrative procedure they are out of my jurisdiction," the deputy prosecutor in Orestiada told us.[77] The Athens prosecutor for juveniles held that she could only take action on behalf of the child if the child had committed an offense.[78]

This view that prosecutors cannot act on behalf of children in an administrative procedure is shared by some police officials. The police director of the Aliens' division in Attica told us, "Because asylum is an administrative procedure there is no role for the prosecutor. The prosecutor usually gives orders to an NGO or anybody else to help the child."[79]

A child needs the guardian's consent to enroll in school. We were told that the temporary guardianship system does not function to the extent that there is no legal way to enroll an unaccompanied child in a school in Athens. NGOs have resorted to informal ways of enrolling children. The Greek Council for Refugees, for example, asserts that it is the permanent guardian for the child in order to enroll the child.[80]

Assessing Vulnerability

The fact of being unaccompanied is a key factor in rendering a child vulnerable. Yet in practice, Greek police hardly ever establish whether a child is unaccompanied. Indeed, it appears that the authorities are reluctant to identify children as such.[81]

When asked about the presence of unaccompanied children, the chief of Samos police said, "Usually, children who arrive here are accompanied; they stay with their families and then they leave together."[82] A representative of the Hellenic coastguard told Human Rights Watch that out of more than 25,000 persons the coastguard had apprehended in the past five years "there were no reported cases of unaccompanied minors."[83]

In 2007 and the first half of 2oo8, the Ministry of Interior issued a total of 12,904 orders of deportation to children for illegal entry or presence in the country. The Ministry, however, was unable to tell Human Rights Watch how many of these orders were given to unaccompanied children and how many had been given multiple times to the same persons (see chapters V and VIII for a discussion on detention and deportation orders).[84] This blindness to a whole category of children means that few are even entering the protection system, inadequate as it is.

There are serious flaws in the way authorities identify vulnerable individuals. Human Rights Watch interviewed several unaccompanied children who were victims of armed conflict, violence, or abuse. Some appeared to be victims of trafficking. In no case did the police correctly identify their vulnerability and special needs, or refer them to special services (see also chapter VII).[85] Indeed, the chief of police in Samos openly doubted the credibility of refugees and migrants who arrive to Samos Island: "many say they come from countries at war but we don't see injuries and they don't ask for asylum."[86]

Fourteen-year-old Hussein S., an unaccompanied boy from Iraq whose case is mentioned above, entered Greece through Samos Island. He was traumatized to such an extent that he had harmed himself and suffered from nightmares. He clung to a doll throughout the interview. His mental state seemed to be the result of having witnessed family members killed and his father abducted and murdered, before insurgents started to target him. He arrived to Samos in March 2008, was registered as an adult based on his own declaration and detained for 27 days jointly with adults, before being put outside the Samos detention center with a deportation order but no assistance.[87] At the time of the interview, this boy was living with an unrelated Iraqi man who spoke so incoherently that Human Rights Watch had to break off the interview with him.

Although the Samos detention center is a brand-new facility equipped with a doctor's office and a social worker, no interpreter is permanently present in the center, which seriously undermines any effort to identify vulnerable individuals.

The failure to correctly identify children who have suffered from violence and torture or those who have been traumatized results in a violation of their entitlement to special assistance and exposes them to serious harm. If these children file an asylum application, they may be less able to speak coherently and convincingly about the reasons for and events that led to their displacement. They may contradict themselves and their stories might be inconsistent due to mental stress. In the worst case, their claims can be deemed unfounded or not credible. Hussein S. had his asylum interview without any prior examination by a psychologist.

Seventeen-year-old Awali N. fled war-torn Mogadishu in August 2007 and arrived in Greece in early 2008. He told us that all his family except for his mother had been killed. He was living in an overcrowded and squalid house and struggled to make a living in Greece. He was visibly under mental stress. Parts of his story were confusing and he admitted that he couldn't concentrate and remember details. He was in a constant sweat and described his mental state as follows:

I can't sleep at night-I'm thinking about my problems. Why are they not doing anything for me in Greece? I can't sleep because of my dreams and because I'm thinking.… I don't know where my mother is and whether she's still alive. I was the only boy left and fled.[88]

Two brothers, one of them eight years old at the time of the events described, told us that they were released from detention without being transferred to a care center in 2006, and ended up in the hands of a criminal gang who subjected them to severe ill-treatment. This included beatings, food deprivation, and infliction of burns with metal objects. The boys said that they managed to escape their torment after nine days, sought help from the police and were re-arrested. They were taken to the first-instance asylum interview, which resulted in a denial, without any prior psychological assistance and in circumstances that were clearly intimidating:[89]

I and my brother did separate interviews. There was an interpreter…. They asked a lot of questions. It lasted for about 20 minutes. They only asked my brother what his name was but nothing-else. He was only eight years old. We both had physical signs of mistreatment-burns of the metal. We showed the scars and injuries to them.
At that time I was ok to do the interview and I told them, but my brother was crying all the time.… I also cried during the interview because they asked about my brother and I became very upset. I didn't have any psychological support. There was no support. There was no doctor or psychologist. They took me from the jail that day to the interview and then back into jail. When they brought us to the interview our hands were tied in the back. Not during the interview but from jail to the car they tied our hands. When we finished the interview they tied our hands again and brought us back.[90]

[33] Border guards and Hellenic police are under the authority of the Ministry of Interior; coast guards and port police officers act under the authority of the Ministry of Mercantile Marine.

[34] Presidential Decree 90/2008, "Adjusting Greek legislation to the provisions of the  Directive 2005/85/EC on minimum standards on procedures in Member States for granting and withdrawing refugee status," Official Gazette A 138, art. 12.

[35] Presidential Decree 90/2008, art. 12 (4) (d).

[36] "Age determination is an inexact science and the margin of error can sometimes be as much as 5 years either side." Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health, The Health of Refugee Children: Guidelines for Practitioners (London: 1999), p.13

[37] Ibid, pp.13-14.

[38] United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR), "Guidelines on Policies and Procedures in Dealing with Unaccompanied Children Seeking Asylum" (hereafter UNHCR Guidelines), February 1997, http://www.unhcr.org/cgi-bin/texis/vtx/refworld/rwmain?page=search&docid=3ae6b3360 (accessed September 1, 2008), section 5.11; Committee on the Rights of the Child, "Treatment of Unaccompanied and Separated Children outside their Country of Origin," General Comment No. 6, CRC/GC/2005/6 (2005), para. 31 (i).

[39] Human Rights Watch interview with Yiorgos Paliouras, police director, Aliens' Division of Attica, Amygdaleza detention center, Athens, June 3, 2008.

[40] Adults have also been registered as children after they declared themselves to be underage. The date of birth is usually registered as January 1.

[41] Human Rights Watch interview with Hayatullah R., ferry Mitilini-Piraeus, June 2, 2008.

[42] Human Rights Watch interview with Fahim F., Volos, June 11, 2008.

[43]Human Rights Watch interview with Sobir S., Volos, June 11, 2008. Human Rights Watch was unable to determine whether the police deliberately did not take the document into consideration or whether it was due to the lack of interpreter and unfamiliarity with the Persian calendar.

[44] Human Rights Watch interview with Hamed P., Athens, June 4, 2008.

[45] Human Rights Watch interview with Raz G., ferry Lesvos-Piraeus, June 2, 2008

[46] EU members also do not enter the date of birth of migrants and asylum seekers into an EU-wide database. Council Regulation (EC) No 2725/2000 of December 11, 2000 concerning the establishment of 'Eurodac' for the comparison of fingerprints for the effective application of the Dublin Convention, Official JournalL 316 , 15/12/2000 P. 0001 – 0010,http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:32000R2725:EN:HTML (accessed October 17, 2008), art.8.

[47] Human Rights Watch interview with Najib M., Patras, June 8, 2008.

[48] "Red card" is the commonly used to describe the red-colored identification document for asylum seekers

[49] Human Rights Watch interview with Sami F., Athens, May 28, 2008.

[50] Human Rights Watch interview with Ioannis Kotsampasi, chief of police Samos, May 30, 2008.

[51] Human Rights Watch interview with Hussein S., Samos, May 30, 2008.

[52] Human Rights Watch interview with Hamed P., Athens, June 4, 2008.

[53] Human Rights Watch interview with Hussein S., Samos, May 30, 2008.

[54] Human Rights Watch interview with Musa M., Athens, May 28, 2008.

[55] Human Rights Watch interview with Alexandros Anastasiou, June 6, 2008.

[56] We asked the Ministry of Health for clarification on how many persons underwent an X-ray age assessment, and how many were found to be children during a meeting and in a follow-up letter. The Ministry did not tell us how many persons were subject to an X-ray or how many were ultimately considered to be children; Human Rights Watch interview with Maria Trochani, secretary general, Ministry of Health, Athens, June 12, 2008. Letter from Maria Trochani to Human Rights Watch, October 3, 2008.

[57] Human Rights Watch interview with interview with Alexandros Anastasiou, June 6, 2008.

[58] Human Rights interview with Constantinos Kordatos, commander, Aliens' Division, Hellenic Police-Headquarters, Athens, June 6, 2008.

[59] CRC, art.3.

[60] This position is supported by the UNHCR. See, Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR), "Guidelines on Policies and Procedures in Dealing with Unaccompanied Children Seeking Asylum," (UNHCR Guidelines), February 1997, executive summary.

[61] UN Committee on the Rights of the Child, General Comment No.6, para. 33. The Separated Children in Europe Program specifies what a guardian's mandate should include. See, Separated Children in Europe Program, Statement of Good Practice 2004, Third Edition, http://www.separated-children-europe-programme.org/separated_children/good_practice/index.html (accessed September 3, 2008) p.16.

[62] UN Committee on the Rights of the Child, General Comment No.6, para.35

[63] UN Committee on the Rights of the Child, General Comment No.6, para.36

[64] Presidential Decree 220/2007, art. 19.1; Ministry of Interior Circular, Prot. No.: 5401/ 1 – 261100, February 23, 2008, Section 3. Most unaccompanied migrant children are only represented by temporary guardians, either the prosecutor for juveniles or the head of the regional first instance court. Temporary guardians may propose the appointment of a permanent guardian through the court, according to articles 1592 and 1601 of the Greek Civil Code. The start of temporary guardianship for unaccompanied children does not require a court decision according to Presidential Decree 220/2007, art. 19.1.

[65] Greek Civil Code, arts. 1592, 1600-1601.

[66] Greek Civil Code, art. 1589; Presidential Decree 220/2007, art. 1 (f).

[67] Greek Civil Code, arts. 1518, 1606, 1647-1648. The guardian may become liable for damage caused by the child if such arises out of his or her mistake in the exercise of duties, Greek Civil Code, art. 1632.

[68] Greek Civil Code, art. 1634.

[69] Greek Civil Code, arts. 1647-1648.

[70] Greek Civil Code, art. 1651.

[71] Greek Civil Code, art. 1599.

[72] Human Rights Watch interview with Filippos Karatzidis, deputy prosecutor, Orestiada, May 26, 2008.

[73] Greek Civil Code, arts. 1606, 1647-1648.

[74]Human Rights Watch interviews with Sylla Papataksiarhi, prosecutor for juveniles, Athens, June 12, 2008. Human Rights Watch interview with Filippos Karatsidis, deputy prosecutor, Orestiada, May 26, 2008; Human Rights Watch interview with Konstantinos Boudzikos, prosecutor of 1st instance court, Mitilini, Lesvos Island, June 2, 2008; Prosecutors outside of Athens are informed by the police when an unaccompanied child is arrested.

[75] A recent UNHCR sponsored study found that children have been unable to enroll in school because their temporary guardian did not consider this to be part of his or her mandate, Papageorgiu and Dimitropoulou, Unaccompanied Minors Study, p.77.

[76] Human Rights Watch interview with Sylla Papataksiarhi, prosecutor for juveniles, Athens, June 12, 2008.

[77] Human Rights Watch interview with Filippos Karatsidis, deputy prosecutor, Orestiada, May 26, 2008.

[78] Human Rights Watch interview with Sylla Papataksiarhi, prosecutor for juveniles, Athens, June 12, 2008.

[79] Human Rights Watch interview with Yiorgos Paliouras, police director, Aliens' Division of Attica, Athens, June 3, 2008.

[80]Human Rights Watch interview with Alexandros Anastasiou, coordinator, social services department, Athens, June 6, 2008. See also, Papageorgiu and Dimitropoulou,Unaccompanied Minors Study, pp.75-84. Human Rights Watch was told that permanent guardians on Kalymnos and Samos Islands who were appointed by court had been able to find solutions for children's specific needs and in the child's best interests. Email correspondence from Panayotis Papadimitriou to Human Rights Watch, August 29, 2008.

[81] The NGO Pro Asyl found that police in Mitilini, Lesvos Island, deliberately registered unaccompanied children as being accompanied by strangers. Pro Asyl, "The truth may be bitter but it must be told," October 2007, http://www.proasyl.de/fileadmin/proasyl/fm_redakteure/Englisch/Griechenlandbericht_Engl.pdf (accessed September 1, 2008) p. 25, and Papageorgiu and Dimitropoulou, Unaccompanied Minors Study, pp. 42-43.

[82] Human Rights Watch interview with Ioannis Kotsampasi, chief of police, Samos, May 30, 2008.

[83] Human Rights Watch interview with Konstantinos Gialelis, Hellenic Coast Guard, Intelligence Directorate, Piraeus, June 5, 2008.

[84] The Deputy Minister of Interior made these figures public in a response letter to a question by a Member of Parliament on August 11, 2008. A copy of the letter is on file with Human Rights Watch.

[85] An Athens-based service provider for torture victims told us that the majority of patients are referred to them by NGOs and that the police had made referrals in the past two years. We were furthermore told that state funding for these services ceased after September 2008. Human Rights Watch telephone interview with Ekavi Papadimitriou, Medical Center for the Rehabilitation of Torture Victims, September 1, 2008.

[86] Human Rights Watch interview with Ioannis Kotsampasi, chief of police, Samos, May 30, 2008.

[87] Human Rights Watch interview with Hussein S., Samos, May 30, 2008.

[88] Human Rights Watch interview with Awali N., Athens, May 24, 2008.

[89] The two boys were granted refugee status at second instance. Sources close to them told Human Rights Watch that the police were put under great pressure by the media that fully covered the story of these boys. The police were blamed for being partly responsible for their kidnapping, because they released the boys from detention without any assistance. See also Papageorgiu and Dimitropoulou, Unaccompanied Minors Study, footnote 152, and "Illegal detention of five Afghan unaccompanied minors seeking asylum for 45 days in Volos and Athens," Group of Lawyers for the Rights of Refugees and Migrants, Press Release, http://cm.greekhelsinki.gr/index.php?cid=2854&sec=194 (accessed September 11, 2008).

[90] Human Rights Watch interview with Noorzai A., June 2008 (exact date and place withheld).